Author Topic: More Developers...  (Read 23683 times)

euroclie

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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2005, 07:55:29 am »
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I love the hardware of the Sharp Zaurus a lot more than the software that runs on it. If Apple made a handtop computer, OQO sized perhaps, then I'll leave the Zaurus behind for it.
I feel like purchasing a Mac mini to replace my current (old) PC for the same reason, but even if Apple made a OQO-sized handtop computer, I'm not sure I'd go that way. The reason is that different interfaces (small tactile screens vs. big displays and a real mouse and keyboard) call for different apps or interface, so there would still be the problem of available apps (even if those available would "just work", unlike what we have now).

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Despite all this, I see great promise in handheld Linux and things like OE, which is why I started this thread. I think we should encourage more developers and after reading all these posts, I still believe that by providing a central point that would allow total beginners to learn the skills from one place, rather than the "it's out there, just put some effort into finding it" mentality - more developers would be encouraged.
I agree with you, it would be nice to have a single place to get started. Right now, you have to find some faqs here, download some SDK's there, browse this or that board's archive for previously asked similar questions, find out that the stuff you have downloaded doesn't work on your particular device or kernel version, hunt again, experiment... Granted, this will make you learn a whole lot of things along the way, and after spending two or three months doing that, having managed to collect a decent-sized bookmark list, you'll look like a guru to newer users, but you shouldn't have to do this.

The trick is: Palm or PalmOne (and of course Microsoft, or the Symbian group) can and do afford to spend considerable amount of time and money to maintain such "single stop" places where you can have it all. I'm not sure it would be worth (in a "what the company can earn vs. what it has to spend" sense) for Sharp to do the same. I mean, sure, easing the task for would-be developers (or simply for experienced developers on other platforms who want to port their apps on the Zaurus) would mean having much more applications available for the end user, but just look at the fact: the Zaurus sales are very restricted, geographically, and I don't think that with more apps the Zaurus would become even a serious competitor to Microsoft or Palm. Hell, Palm is more or less dying already, and the Zaurus is so much more confidential than PalmOne's PDAs...

So as much as I would love to see this, I won't hold my breath for Sharp to get as heavily involved in the development stuff as other PDA manufacturers.

This leaves only end users to try and do the same, but who's willing to donate the time and money required? Who has the skills to do this, anyway? 'Experienced developer' seems the minimum level required to get started on explaining things to other people, and it seems that the few experienced developers we have in the Zaurus arena already have their plates full, and very often not enough time to make their own apps grow as fast as they'd wish, so it seems unlikely they can afford to do much more than what is already done...

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Anyway this is all mixed in with another argument about how to make something popular enough for more people to have.
Well, it's true that the two subjects are interdependant, anyway...

Maybe, instead of re-inventing the wheel (i.e. trying to create a Zaurus development specific website from scratch), we could try to improve the existing material? This kind of stuff cannot be a single man project, by essence (as I wrote earlier, only big companies have enough bucks and manpower for that), but if enough experienced and would-be developers were willing to bring some help, maybe the existing faqs and howto can be regularly updated, improved and refined so that someone who wants to get started does not have to retrace the history of Zaurus development to be able to program for his new toy?

I know that some here have multiple Zaurus devices simultaneously, but I only have a C3000, with a Sharp-based ROM (Cacko 3kb1), so there's a lot of things I cannot do because some stuff is specific to other devices or ROM... That being said, I'm willing to help - as time permits, as is the case for most if not all of us - if this can be useful. I have some limited (read: as a hobbyist, it's not my job and I have no diploma in that area) programming skills on other platforms (most recently on PalmOS), and I have succesfully installed the cross compilation toolchains on my Linux laptop (and the dev-image on the 3000 itself  ). Hey, I was even able to build some of the examples provided with the SDK!

Who's in?  Who wants to coordinate the effort? We'd need at the very least some help/advice from OE Forums moderators and specialists... and the start would probably be to try to track down most/all of the existing stuff before even thinking about adding new content!
Patrick

speculatrix

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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2005, 08:35:49 am »
Well, I add things to the WIKI when I can.

I am often disappointed that the same old questions come up in the forums, people answer, but the answer's not put in the wiki.  How many forum members actually do contribute to the wiki?
Gemini 4G/Wi-Fi owner, formerly zaurus C3100 and 860 owner; also owner of an HTC Doubleshot, a Zaurus-like phone.

omro

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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2005, 08:44:23 am »
How many forum members even know the wiki even exists?
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lardman

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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2005, 10:27:39 am »
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Quote
Despite all this, I see great promise in handheld Linux and things like OE, which is why I started this thread. I think we should encourage more developers and after reading all these posts, I still believe that by providing a central point that would allow total beginners to learn the skills from one place, rather than the "it's out there, just put some effort into finding it" mentality - more developers would be encouraged.

I agree with you, it would be nice to have a single place to get started.

<snip>

The trick is: Palm or PalmOne (and of course Microsoft, or the Symbian group) can and do afford to spend considerable amount of time and money to maintain such "single stop" places where you can have it all.

<snip>

This leaves only end users to try and do the same, but who's willing to donate the time and money required? Who has the skills to do this, anyway? 'Experienced developer' seems the minimum level required to get started on explaining things to other people, and it seems that the few experienced developers we have in the Zaurus arena already have their plates full, and very often not enough time to make their own apps grow as fast as they'd wish, so it seems unlikely they can afford to do much more than what is already done...

openembedded.org already has a wiki, feel free to add some more notes there about getting started using it. Although it may require an experienced developer to understand it all, they don't remember what they wanted/needed to learn to begin with (nor are they needed for these first steps) - what it really needs is for the new users to document their issues as these are far more pertinent to other would-be developers.


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jfv

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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2005, 12:11:33 pm »
Maybe we should all learn Japanese. I have this feeling it would give us a whole new perspective on this Zaurus development thing. I'd really like to have an accurate picture of the state of Zaurus development in Japan. Does anybody know?

Felipe

P.S. Seriously, though, the people wanting to write commercial software for the Zaurus should at least team up with somebody who speaks Japanese and offer Japanese localization on their product.
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omro

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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2005, 06:35:05 pm »
I don't think the Zaurus should be considered the do all and be all of linux hardware. I actually think the lack of linux haldheld hardware is a direct result of the lack of sufficient quality haldheld linux software and by this I don't mean the OS and the great work the developers have made with the OS, but lets face it, people buy a device for the apps, not the OS, most couldn't care less what distribution of the various linux ROMs were on their handheld, as long as it had the apps they wanted, and to be frank, embedded linux apps, suck. How long has it taken to get a decent PIM? and that ko/pa pi thing is all very well and good, but it's overkill for a hand held and the interface is just too clumsy, am sure it's great on a desktop or laptop with a big screen, but give me something with a clean, crisp looking appearance and decent functionality over a cluttered mess anyday. I've always said and will continue to say that handheld linux needs a decent word processor and spreadsheet and office package in general. The lack of emphasis on these as well as the lack of emphasis on core apps, is why everyone bought a windows or a palm pda when PDAs were the in thing. Now PDAs are dying out, just as handheld linux is trying to catch up.
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ken

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2005, 07:28:33 pm »
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and to be frank, embedded linux apps, suck. How long has it taken to get a decent PIM? and that ko/pa pi thing is all very well and good, but it's overkill for a hand

I don't know, I'm perfectly happy with the sharp PIM as it synchs nicely with the palm desktop.  There are a ton of PIMs in elsix and killefiz.

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to say that handheld linux needs a decent word processor and spreadsheet and office package in general. The lack of emphasis on these as well as the lack of

I don't do a ton of writing on my Z, but when I do, I think hancom or textmaker is fine for writing.  hancom reads my spreadsheets fine.  As long as it gives me functionality, I dont mind living with certain limitations, like fancy fonts.

I'm quite happy that the Z has many more apps than your standard PDA does.  AND I'm happy it's not at that standard 320x320 that most PDAs are.  AND I'm happy it's not as slow as those ipaqs and such with windoze.  Sure, there are apps that would be nice to have.  I have a lot more functionality that I bargained for, like zbedic and nfdb and dmblogger, and so forth.

It's about the journey.   And the fact that progress is being made everyday.

If you want the total functionality that windows apps has, then you're in the wrong device.  Linux is about choice and not having to pay ms for everything.  There are quite a number of devices on the windows side that will have everything you want - at a price of course.
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euroclie

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« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2005, 03:25:43 am »
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I don't know, I'm perfectly happy with the sharp PIM as it synchs nicely with the palm desktop.
Then you're a lucky guy, because I only managed to make it sync once...  OTOH, I don't really need it to sync except for backup purposes, so I don't complain too much about that side of things. But syncing capabilities is certainly one area where Sharp didn't over-perform, especially considering that they changed the PIM database format on the most recent devices, and broke everything save the Windows/Intellisync solution, that isn't particularly rock-solid or foolproof.

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There are a ton of PIMs in elsix and killefiz.
No, there are only a couple of alternatives, as far as datebook or addressbook are concerned. And nothing that meets my needs, anyway, whereas I could find other OSes and apps that can handle things like setting a background color for a given day depending on what's scheduled at that date, for instance. But like most other stuff out there for the Zaurus, a lot of those alternatives are generally not updated on a regular basis. (well, except for KDE/PIM, which is actively maintained, but which I do not consider very much PDA-oriented as it is platform-independant).

A quick search with the "PIM" keyword brings only two results on ELSI (of which only KDE/PIM is relevant), a bit more on killefiz but basically with two relevant apps, LDE/PIM and Zcalendar. This last one looks good, but has a very limited feature set (no sync, no beam, runs on 5600 only and hasn't been updated since v0.1 beta one year and a half ago).

A search with the "datebook" or "agenda" keyword doesn't return any find on ELSI, you have to "manually" search for "Qualendar", for instance, to find it there.

As far as address book is concerned, a search with the "Address" keyword returns two relevant entries in ELSI (opie-addressbook and tKcAddressBook), and of course there's still KA/PI.

All in all, we have only a few apps, not all of which are easily found even when searching ELSI or killefiz... I don't call this exactly "tons of PIMs"!

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hancom reads my spreadsheets fine.  As long as it gives me functionality, I dont mind living with certain limitations, like fancy fonts.
I like Hancom sheet too, except that with large files it becomes completely unusable (speed issue). Also, I've encountered a few bugs (couldn't copy a text cell into another, it seemed that the copy function would not work for that cell - not protected in any way, BTW), and one feature (or lack thereof) that disappointed me is that it is not able to save the "freeze panes" setting, so you have to get to the right cell, and activate that menu item every time you open your file. Otherwise, I think that spreadsheet/word processor is an area where the Zaurus performs better than the average Palm PDA!

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I'm quite happy that the Z has many more apps than your standard PDA does.
Uh? More apps on the Zaurus than your standard PDA? I must have bought a different Zaurus, and different PDAs before...

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AND I'm happy it's not as slow as those ipaqs and such with windoze.
Well, I've used an iPaq for a while before, and numerous PalmOS PDAs as well, and the Zaurus is by far the slowest when it comes to launching new apps, or actually using basic apps like the builtin datebook for instance. I don't want to get too deep into a (off topic) comparison of those platforms, but the software seems to be the biggest cause of the overall slowness, because the C3000 CPU is the fastest I've had on a PDA, and all my previous PDAs were faster in most reards... I mean, as a mini laptop, the Zaurus is a geek's dream come true, but as a PDA, well... it's quite far from the best thing available, and pretending otherwise is bordering to fanaticism!

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And the fact that progress is being made everyday.
Yes, that's true. But essentially, as was noted before, progress is being made by individual during their freetime, which means that it's slow at best, and the obstacles for would-be programmers are sometimes discouraging... By the time your favorite application reaches maturity, unfortunately, most people will have switched to another Zaurus (we're a bunch of geeks, and most of us can't resist the urge to buy the latest and fastets gizmos, can we?  ) or another OS.  That's why making it easier for the developers would be a good idea - in an end-user perspective!
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ken

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« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2005, 03:42:36 am »
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No, there are only a couple of alternatives, as far as datebook or addressbook are

The "categories" on the left side, one of which is PIM probably fits what you're interested in.

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other OSes and apps that can handle things like setting a background color for a given day depending on what's scheduled at that date, for instance. But like most

That sounds like the tkc apps would suit you.  http://thekompany.com/embedded/

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A search with the "datebook" or "agenda" keyword doesn't return any find on ELSI, you have to "manually" search for "Qualendar", for instance, to find it there.

all those searches are probably not needed.  Just choose browse and look through what's in the category PIM.  I'd probably suggest killefiz for that, as it's easier to see initially.

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too, except that with large files it becomes completely unusable (speed issue). Also, I've encountered a few bugs (couldn't copy a text cell into another, it seemed that the copy function would not work for that cell - not protected in any way, BTW), and one feature (or lack thereof) that disappointed me is that it is not able to save the

I believe there was another app that clones excel stuff, I don't recall as I wasn't interested.  I could browse at some point and do a look see later.

A few of the apps I use is here:

https://www.oesf.org/index.php?title=Applic...6000L/Sharp_ROM

I haven't said much about it, as I'm still working on the page.

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well, and the Zaurus is by far the slowest when it comes to launching new apps, or

There is always fast load ...

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as a mini laptop, the Zaurus is a geek's dream come true, but as a PDA, well... it's quite far from the best thing available, and pretending otherwise is bordering to

Depends what you're looking for, of course.  Once guylhem is done with his rom (if he ever gets the time), the 6K will be able to launch things much faster.  Also, depending upon where you install your stuff, it may be slow or fast.  Stuff on the SD will be slower of course.  Especially if you put /home and everything there.

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(we're a bunch of geeks, and most of us can't resist the urge to buy the latest and fastets gizmos, can we?  ) or another OS.  That's why making it easier for the developers would be a good idea - in an end-user perspective!

When zaurus.com was taken down, it was a big setback for many of us, as well as when killefiz got tired of maintaining his site.  However, I think you'll find that some momentum is building again, as the resources that were scattered are slowly being revived and put together.  As an example, I find myself almost daily updating things on elsix.  Whether it's repairing dead links, or updating file versions, or whatever, it's getting better.  As well as the howtos that I'm trying to work with.

The issue has been raised that it was hard to find developer information -- that's now been partially resolved, by relinking a few things, and putting a few things together.  All it took was for the issue to be raised ...

I think you'll find that of the various 'toys' out there, the Z is not that bad.  All the effort put in here won't be wasted either, as other new toys, such as the Nokia 770 will also run linux.

I should mention that as I've been updating elsix and such, I've noticed newer versions of the same apps that I've been using.  This is an almost daily thing that's been happening.  I find that very exciting.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 04:45:11 am by ken »
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Cresho

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« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2005, 05:33:05 am »
I dont understand what people are trying to do here

We have a wiki

we have a development team (pdaxrom, open zaurus, cacko)

i started posting in forums of a theme gallery and also wallpapers for the z

so whats the problem?

hey on a diff. note, have you seen palms lifedrive?
bluetooth
wifi
4gb hardrive.

next year its gona be linux os

even after reading about this, i decided to still buy a c1000
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ken

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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2005, 05:48:28 am »
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i started posting in forums of a theme gallery and also wallpapers for the z

That reminds me.  I added you to elsix:
http://elsix.org/index.php?w=project&p=zaurusthemes

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hey on a diff. note, have you seen palms lifedrive?

I hear it's slow
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omro

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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2005, 05:56:20 am »
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I dont understand what people are trying to do here

The original point of my original post was:

It's hard to develop for the Zaurus or handheld linux in general, most people don't know where to start.

It would be nice to have some webspace dedicated to teaching people how to start, with baby steps, the A B C of the linux development perhaps.

OK, it has been pointed out that there is a lot of info out there and that people only have to look. BUT, that said, lots of people don't know what to look for, a lot of resources online, the wiki included assume a level of knowledge that some people just do not have.

To use an analogy. A lot of people are like preschoolers when it comes to Linux and development. How can you expect a preschooler to understand something a graduate can understand, without teaching them the steps in between? I find a lot of the technical posts cater for people with graduate level knowledge and the preschoolers are left wondering what the hell is going on.

There a lot of bright people on here, to whom certain people's lack of a knowledge is met with scorn, derision and a "go and search for it mentality" and this is counter productive.

A lot of people learn better by instruction, than by being told the information is out there, find it. If there were some structured, learning resources for the zaurus or handheld linux in general, I feel that people would ask less on the forums.
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speculatrix

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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2005, 06:18:09 am »
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understand, without teaching them the steps in between? I find a lot of the technical posts cater for people with graduate level knowledge and the preschoolers are left wondering what the hell is going on.

this discussion alone has helped me a lot, people have pointed out resources that I didn't find before.

qtopia.net has been pretty useful; although there are broken links. It does actually start from scratch, so as long as you know how to download and install an RPM, you can get going. The error messages from qt are not very helpful (and I've found myself using "strace" to discover what it was trying to do when it throws an error).

I've made great leaps forward since discovering the discussion on qtopia.net about the "qvfb" program, which I didn't know about, and didn't exist in what I'd built before, and I'd been trying to get the linux kernel virtual frame buffer (experimental stuff, which simply corrupted the screen!). I can now run and test the program on x86 which makes life MUCH faster than copying it over to the Z every time.

Maybe I simply had overly high expectations about how straightforward it should be, I kind of assumed I'd just download a cross compiler and the right version of QT, but no... there's three different types of QT - qtopia, qt-e, qt-x11, each of which has many versions, you've got to get the right combination etc etc.

Maybe I should have gone OpenEmbedded, those guys have bitten the bullet, it seems, and made a complete toolchain rather than the patchwork above.

I was very close to giving up QT and going down the java or python route. If that hadn't worked, the Z would have gone on ebay  
Gemini 4G/Wi-Fi owner, formerly zaurus C3100 and 860 owner; also owner of an HTC Doubleshot, a Zaurus-like phone.

koen

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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2005, 07:17:57 am »
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I dont understand what people are trying to do here

The original point of my original post was:

It's hard to develop for the Zaurus or handheld linux in general, most people don't know where to start.

[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

[a href=\"http://handhelds.org]http://handhelds.org[/url] would be a good (and obvious  ) place to start
Forums are not bugtrackers!!! Smart questions
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ken

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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2005, 07:21:54 am »
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qtopia.net has been pretty useful; although there are broken links. It does actually

actually, if you look at the link itself, many of them are almost correct.

For example:

http://www.qtopia.net/%22http://www.handhe...z/wiki/iPKG/%22

Which should have been:

http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg

This error occurred when they went to the new wiki.  If you find a broken link, use the same name of the wiki, in this case: "ipkg"

For your convenience, I've placed a few of the links you probably are interested in:

http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/BuildIpkg
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/BuildingIpkgs
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/BuildingIpkgsFor5600
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/IpkgFeeds
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/IpkgTodo
http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/MaintainingIpkgFeeds

Hope this helps
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 07:26:25 am by ken »
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