What Are Your N770 Experiences Compared To Zaurus?

[slackwaresupport]

how good have you gotten to know it?? i just got one. and wanting to know like, to change the menu around, add, delete things etc. and what programs do you have loaded?

[Gondola]

how good have you gotten to know it?? i just got one. and wanting to know like, to change the menu around, add, delete things etc. and what programs do you have loaded?
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There's a lot involved; you might have to be root to move the menu choices around.
The files are in /etc/others-menu.  Basically the files there are symlinks to the actual .desktop entries.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should probably wait until someone produces an app to do it.

If you go to the Maemo wiki, you can find out a lot.  [a href=\"http://maemo.org/maemowiki]http://maemo.org/maemowiki[/url]

Also if you join #maemo on the irc.freenode.net server you can come and chat.
I'm Supergeek or Gondola there.

[dhns]

So,
now here some more experiences with the N770.

Wireless is still great (with the new Access Point...).

But I have some difficulties with the power down mode. If I leave the device alone, the screen goes dark after 30 seconds. Tapping the screen brings it back. But when I want to use it after one day, there is no reaction to tapping the screen. When I press the on-switch and it comes up for some seconds and goes off again - without any notice. So, the battery seems to be discharged. When I then plug it to the charger - it then reboots fist.

Another issue is the arrow keypad on the left side. That does not work well for me. I usually hold the pen in the left hand and the device in my left palm - the thumb at the lower area (where the connectors are) and the index finger at the top. So, I have either to move the right hand (which holds the pen) to the left side to press a key - which covers the screen. Or I have to reverse my left hand so that the thumb is to the left and I hold the device with the remaining 4 fingers. But - at least for me - this is also an unnatural position. So, 100 more points to the Zaurus for ergonomic handling.

Some very good experiences are the installation of new software. It is really just 5 clicks away. Starting at the Maemo .org page, I can select the Applications list, select the package, click on the download link and select install. That's it.

And even OpenSSH was easy to install using the instruction. Note that this requires to use the flasher utility on a Linux or MacOS X machine - but did work very well, simple and and fast.

But now comes the first hurdle: I can ping and connect the ssh server from outside - but what is the user name and the password it asks for. For the Zaurus, the username is either 'root' or 'zaurus' and the password is the security code (or empty). Maybe, the N770 even disables the password completely for security reasons (you all might have access to my ssh server!). Then, I will have to install some authentification certificates first.

One observation aside: when using the flasher utility, I had to plug in the USB cable. And that directly mounted the MMC card on my MacOS X desktop as an external USB drive. And I could easily copy files on the card.

Finally, I am working on building a cross-compiler toolchain that runs on MacOS X. But nobody could tell me yet which gcc version to use... Maemo development is Linux-centric. It uses a development environment called Scratchbox - which does not run on MacOS X.

-- hns

[Gondola]

dhns:

I had to flash into R&D mode (see the Wiki for complete directions) to become root.  Once you're root, you can change the user and root passwords (recommended).

As for development: Is there a VMware player for Mac?  I'm currently using a development environment installed on top of the freely available Browser Appliance image, and I'm running it in Windows XP.  The whole OS runs in a window in a virtualized environment.

If you've got a 770 and you're not keeping up with the Maemo Wiki (http://maemo.org/maemowiki) and ITT forums (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/) you're missing out on a lot of info.

G

[dhns]

I had to flash into R&D mode (see the Wiki for complete directions) to become root.  Once you're root, you can change the user and root passwords (recommended).

That is what I have finally done. Was just missing in the Wiki docs...

If you've got a 770 and you're not keeping up with the Maemo Wiki (http://maemo.org/maemowiki) and ITT forums (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/) you're missing out on a lot of info.

As a developer, the best thing you can do is to subscribe to maemo-developers-request@maemo.org - then you have immediate access to people who know mostly everything - besides which gcc version is being used in Scratchbox

-- hns

[lardman]

But I have some difficulties with the power down mode. If I leave the device alone, the screen goes dark after 30 seconds. Tapping the screen brings it back. But when I want to use it after one day, there is no reaction to tapping the screen. When I press the on-switch and it comes up for some seconds and goes off again - without any notice. So, the battery seems to be discharged. When I then plug it to the charger - it then reboots fist.

The processor cannot enter 'sleep mode' - using dyntick - unless all of the running apps stop any clocks they have running. This means that the games will cause the battery to drain even while the cover is on. (This assumes the clocks continue running if the games are not paused and I think they do as I had exactly the same thing happen when I stuck the cover on half-way through one of the games.)

Another thing which stops dyntick is enabling usb-host mode so I read on the wiki.


Si

[dhns]

So, here again experiences. This time with software development.

I finally managed to build a gcc-4.0.1-glibc-2.3.5 cross compiler toolchain which runs on MacOS X.

The last stage of building that compiler tries to compile some "hello world" programs in C and C++ to test if the compiler runs.

Now, I plugged the N770 through USB to my Mac - and the MMC was mounted on the desktop. I could simply drag&drop the mentioned executables on the Finder window to copy them to the N770's MMC.

Then, I ssh'ed into the N770 and tried to cd to /media/mmc1. This failed - because the MMC is unmounted from the internal file system while the N770 is connected to USB (Note: it is not sufficient to Eject in the Finder - you have to physically unplug the cable).

After ejecting and unplugging, I could cd and I found my files.

But they did not run from the command line (I think mounting disables executables).

Then, I copied them into internal Flash (strangely the Documents are stored at /home/user/MyDocs/.Document so that I had to use find to locate that).

And then, it worked!

A next test was to copy some gcc-2.95.3-glibc-2.2.2 binaries like xlsfonts (for X/Qt) from the Zaurus to the N770. The X11 apps did fail because one library is missing (libXmu). But one plain command line application did work as well.

So, the summary is: the N770 is basically compatible in binary API to the Zaurus.

But that does only mean that porting applications back and forth is possible - it does not say anything about the efforts to really put in...

-- hns

[mars]

Here are some of my initial thoughts on the the Nokia based on my experience with the Zaurus:

Bottom Line: If the Zaurus had a screen the size of the Nokia and either built-in blue tooth or wi-fi, it becomes the clear winner.

My advice: Unless you only need internet browsing (via bluetooth or wi-fi) or want to support a company's effort to mainstream products with Linux then you may want to wait for Rev 2 of the Nokia or wait and see if Sharp produces something worthy.

Things I like about the Nokia:

* Wider screen --  this makes a noticeable difference in viewing web pages, but not as much of a difference with viewing pdf files as I would have thought. Some pdf's need even more screen width to read comfortably with scrolling side-to-side.[/li]

* Convenient and will-integrated wi-fi and bluetooth -- the wifi seems relatively strong too

* The Nokia integrates really well with the Think outside bluetooth keyboard -- this may become my preferred way to do lots of typing

* The nokia easily mounts as a usb-storage device on the Zaurus (though I am not sure about the other way around).

* Debian

* Good community support

* Slick flashing via USB

Things I Don't Like

* Screen seems softer than Zaurus and almost frosted in appearance

* No internal keyboard -- I didn't realize how much I have come to rely on the Zaurus built-in keyboard.

* No package management system that handles dependencies

* Seems that applications have to be modified to work with the Hilden interface -- May be an eventual benefit, but slows down getting apps up and running. Abiword and Gnumeric, while available still have many kinks to be worked out in the porting process. On pdaXrom, Abiword and Gnumeric just work.

* Extra effort required to get root access -- easier now that a community member provided a patch to the Nokia bin file that is painless to apply and reflash

* Seems to be difficult to get USB host going -- USB host won't provide any power, not even to keyboards.

* Limitations on local storage and non-standard memory card -- Well, the RS-MMC format is non-standard to me and entails an additional investment. Having a 3100 and an additional 8 GB Seagate CF drive, I have become accustomed to storage not being an issue.

* Presently limited to Gtk apps -- I read on a KDE list that some Nokia developers find this to be an important feature. But with pdaXrom, I've gotten comfortable with being toolkit agnostic -- I've had Gtk, Qt, Wx, and Fox apps installed at the same time.

Other thoughts:

I remain skeptical that the Nokia 770 will take off as a consumer device. At the price-point (USD 350), I couldn't see myself buying it as a pure internet appliance. I would want additional functionality as well.

Nokia seems to have figured out how to tap into the open source community -- something Sharp has only figured out how to alienate. The Nokia therefore seems to generate way more buzz than the Zaurii. I guess time will tell if it will be a commercial success.

One other datapoint - I purchased the Nokia at the local CompUSA. It was not on display and the guy at the counter had never heard of it. It actually took a while for them to figure out that they did sell it, had it in stock and could locate it. The person who rang it up seeing that it was a "Nokia" tried to figure out if it needed to be activated. By contrast, the Sharp SL 5500 when it came out was widely available and on display locally -- although it didn't fare so well.

[lardman]

* Seems that applications have to be modified to work with the Hilden interface -- May be an eventual benefit, but slows down getting apps up and running. Abiword and Gnumeric, while available still have many kinks to be worked out in the porting process. On pdaXrom, Abiword and Gnumeric just work.

Actually this is not true. They have to be modified if they are to be launched from the menu, otherwise you can run things from the command line (or perhaps via a script from the menu - I'm not sure). The iPAQ version of xcas/giac (from the website) runs okay, though it seems to choke on available memory when I try to do anything (this may be a limitation of that binary though as I've used an OZ version without troubles under GPE).

Which brings me on to GPE. The latest Nokia release is actually rather snappy, but GPE is still faster (there are rootfs images avialable for the Nokia 770). It needs people to hack at it to add support for the various bits and bobs of course, but that's all part of the fun  


Si

[mars]

They have to be modified if they are to be launched from the menu, otherwise you can run things from the command line (or perhaps via a script from the menu - I'm not sure).

Would they have the same problem like the ported Gnumeric does of disappearing if it is minimized?

... but GPE is still faster (there are rootfs images avialable for the Nokia 770).

A comparison between GPE and the stock Nokia image would be great! Is there somewhere I can try the images and instructions on what to do? A quick search didn't reveal anything.

[lardman]

Would they have the same problem like the ported Gnumeric does of disappearing if it is minimized?

Yes. Though gnumeric has now been fixed (so I read yesterday). There is also talk on the mailing list of way apps are identified for the taskbar, which should mean that any X app is 'restorable'. Hopefully Nokia will implement this as it'll increase the number of apps that can be run with little or no effort.

A comparison between GPE and the stock Nokia image would be great! Is there somewhere I can try the images and instructions on what to do? A quick search didn't reveal anything.

Try here (in the experimental software packages): http://www.kernelconcepts.de/~fuchs/

Note that you should remove the majority of the applets as these stop dyntick from slowing the clock and therefore your battery will die sooner. Also no sound atm afaik, though bedboi on #gpe was working on that, and no battery reporting (this is something I was working on - borrowing the dbus messages that Nokia use - but had to put on the backburner as I'm a bit busy atm. I'll get back to it soon).


Si