Lack Of Intrest In Forums Lately

[speculatrix]

simply get people to search the list archives for information?
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Heh, most people here can't even find the 'search' button in these fora nor locate [a href=\"http://google.com]http://google.com[/url], and you expect them to search mailinglists?
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well, you clearly only want highly technical people linux experts to use OZ, and not regular people, so you might as well all climb into your ivory tower and pull the ladder up behind you!

[koen]

Have you actually tried using google to solve a Z-related problem?  It's a nightmare, and unless one knows exactly what the distribution one is using is based on, it's sometimes impossible to find related information.
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No, I haven't, since I always work from the assumption that using a debian-based distro makes 99% of the problems unrelated to the machine it's running on. For the other 1% I'll ask the developer working on that area directly. If those steps don't solve it, I file a bug in the bugtracker of the project involved. That way all my problems get documented and hence indexed by google.
Complaining in some random forum with the assumption that the developers *must* read it is a dead end, deal with it.

[koen]

simply get people to search the list archives for information?
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Heh, most people here can't even find the 'search' button in these fora nor locate [a href=\"http://google.com]http://google.com[/url], and you expect them to search mailinglists?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

well, you clearly only want highly technical people linux experts to use OZ, and not regular people, so you might as well all climb into your ivory tower and pull the ladder up behind you!
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I don't care about OZ, but it would be refreshing if people would spend 5 minutes searching the web before starting to complain about (already solved) problems.

To illustrate the problem:

I once wrote a 10 step download/install wizard with every step in a seperate page. You could click on your machine, select the flavour you wanted (opie, gpe, bootstrap, etc), and it would give you 1 tarball with all the needed files. After that there was in installation instruction with lots of screenshots of the different states. Every page started with "make sure you read the release notes" and ended with the same (including a link to said release notes).
The release notes started with with a big fat note that some versions of the bootloader would make opie fail to start up, including instructions how to work around it.

As you might have guessed, tons of people were complaining that opie didn't start and asking for a solution. When asked if the solution mentioned in the release notes worked the response was "Release notes?".

That experience has taught me that the only way to avoid complaints is to have a perfect result. It also taught me that people should file bugs for problems they encounter, because after some investigation it turned out people had seen the problem, but said "Opie doesn't start, this stuff sucks!", but didn't tell it to the developers (via mail, irc, bugzilla, etc).

[koen]

It also taught me that people should file bugs for problems they encounter, because after some investigation it turned out people had seen the problem, but said "Opie doesn't start, this stuff sucks!", but didn't tell it to the developers (via mail, irc, bugzilla, etc).
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I can summarize that with:

"It is extremely hard to solve problems you aren't aware of"

[lardman]

Can I propose you get the OZ forums here on oesf.org frozen/locked.. there's no point in them being here, if what you say is right. And the OZ website news section is closed to comments, and the wiki is very very slow, and quite disorganised, so is a pain to use. So, might as well become a mailing-list only group and simply get people to search the list archives for information?

I said more exposure I think. The forums here serve a purpose, which is to answer less technical questions (and some more technical if there's a dev reading who's interested). The website comments are closed as hrw was too busy to administer it. I'm sorry if the wiki is slow, it seems to work ok for me, but it may be a time of day thing.

Disorganisation of the wiki is my fault, I should spend more time sorting it out, but as with others, I also have a job and a life. I gladly accept help and the addition/correction of articles...

Si, you are most definintely one of the devs who makes me stick around here...

I'm glad to help (when I have time, which is increasingly short these days).

Indeed, my experience of that got me no response (here), well, the thread carried on with my issue ignored. Do I sound bitter? ;-)

 See if there's a bug open, add your info to it, would be my recommendation. Sorry I can't help more than that at the moment.

Most of us have lives outside of the Zaurus and as such have better things to do than spend ages sifting through the disorganised mess that is the Zaurus documentation world. Have you actually tried using google to solve a Z-related problem? It's a nightmare, and unless one knows exactly what the distribution one is using is based on, it's sometimes impossible to find related information.

Indeed we do all have lives (and jobs), so where does one draw the line between providing and using information, it's as much up to you to look as it is to us to provide info (more so in fact as you're the one with the problem to solve). These things require cooperation. If the docs/information resources/HowTos/etc. are poorly organised, then please help organise them, etc. In the same way, if you encounter a bug, please file a bugreport and provide as much info as you can for the devs so they don't have to waste time trying to reproduce it, etc.

well, you clearly only want highly technical people linux experts to use OZ, and not regular people, so you might as well all climb into your ivory tower and pull the ladder up behind you!

No, but it's not the responsibility of the core devs to field questions and produce docs, this is for further down the chain - both because the people further down the chain have the time (as they're not doing the development) and because they know the kinds of questions that need to be answered.


Si

[lardman]

Going back on topic, I do think that trawling through the forum and producing docs - from howtos to histories, etc. would be worthwhile as the volume of data on the forum is rather large (and repetitive which makes searching difficult at times).


Si

[Antikx]

Going back on topic, I do think that trawling through the forum and producing docs - from howtos to histories, etc. would be worthwhile as the volume of data on the forum is rather large (and repetitive which makes searching difficult at times).
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Agreed!

[Cyberdoc1971]

Trying to keep on topic, apparently I see a lot of posts in regards to solving tech issues. I only intended this thread to generate intrest in the areas that are dead or dying (Linux news, games, wallpaper/themes, office apps, multimedia apps, utilities, beginer experiences, etc.), not really as a call center to troubleshoot. I have no gripes against the people that need help, but I feel that they should do a search for the problems that they are having, or start a new topic in the appropiate forum.

[xjqian]

Could I suggest we clean up the forums here?

Some old posts are really old and irrelavent nowadays. Also there're lots of naive ones (e.g. how to de-magnify gui in sharp roms) that have been asked again and again. All these make search painful. Could they be moved into an obsolete/archive forum, (of course in an unbiased way).

e.g. we can flag those old/irrelavent posts to the mod. If the mod agree, he can move those posts to a "deprecate" forum. People can agree/object the "deprecation" in that forum by voting.  If no objection is received, those posts get deprectaed into the "obsolete/archive" forum, in a way that don't get involved in the searching.

[lardman]

I think that's an interesting idea.

Some old posts are really old and irrelavent nowadays.

But I think it would still be worthwhile documenting them.

Also there're lots of naive ones (e.g. how to de-magnify gui in sharp roms) that have been asked again and again.

These could be placed into the relevant HowTos/FAQs. There's an OZ wiki (http://wiki.openzaurus.org/), where are the other 'distros' wikis/FAQ entries?

Could they be moved into an obsolete/archive forum, (of course in an unbiased way).

This may not be necessary as people could use the date filter, except for those posts which don't add anything new - the kind of thing I used to post: "use search and search for "such and such", which are a pain as they contain the search term (sorry!).

I like the idea though, and as people will be reading these posts, they will be able to distil the contents into HowTos/FAQs.


Si

[Cyberdoc1971]

Kind of sort of archiving old posts, but have them avaiable to everyone?

[Da_Blitz]

i would love for some people who join this fourm and ask questions to relise that just because its a Z dosent mean that the software acts any diffrentlly to when its used on a real PC

seems we get people asking obvios questions about linux because the percive linux on the Z as bieng a compleattly diffrent OS to the linux on the PC.

extending on that idea is people who post a question to the c3000 section for example that really is a general question and not c3000 specific (eg cant get usbnet working with my home PC which i see alot of in networking fourm[/rant]

i guess a general model specific faq thats sticky would be a good idea, havent checked but i assume most have them in some form or another but perhaps an update with liniks to a relevent post?

[neuroshock]

Hey folks,

(Yes I really am still alive.)   I just dropped by for the first time in seemingly forever and instantly tripped over this post. It's a meaningful one in my opinion. Because of health issues I'm away for looong periods of time and then binge on the forums for a few months while I'm able, so it's not so noticeable to me as it is to most of the regulars and developers who drop by here daily year 'round for one reason or another. Here's a few thoughts of my own that somebody might find helpful about this subject.

1. Sometimes no news is good news!
As mentioned before these lulls happen between model releases and can be a general indication of the "maturity level" of the most popular Roms. Unless prompted by new hardware, or by the discovery of a way to significantly improve performance or useability the devs tend to work on integrating new peripherals and cleaning up old problems in their latest release.
Ironically what realllllly irks me is the opposite: When new hardware comes out and every ROM distribution and it's brother shifts gears to supporting the new hardware and starts firing ROM releases and hotfixes etc. out for all of us to cry over.  You know what I'm talking about I'm sure... where it looks BEAUTIFUL but has over two dozen "small" but completely mind numbing glitches that make it unuseable for all but the top 3% elite of us (me NOT included - I'm in the other 97%!) Then you see a million quick how-to's that may fix the problem if you just understood the post/Linux/programming/etc. ad nauseum a little  bit better than you ever will. =(
So again, at least for the most common platforms we currently have stable and useful Roms, (Usually in multiple flavors.)

2. Support the devs and the newbies!
I can't say enough about this and how important it is. We have tried again and again and again to come up with a business or volunteer based model that would produce enough income to financially support even a SINGLE person/developer so that we could get a TRULY end user friendly complete product.  Until something changes it just isn't gonna happen I'm afraid.  So for the developers to keep working on these things and moving things along the three best things you can do to help them is to:
Send them MEANINGFUL thank-you's and kudo's for thier hard work! Take the time to do it right and be sincere...think how much time they've spent on YOU.
Send them CASH if you use their product or even if you don't but can see that their work is pushing the future of the Zaurii forward!
Send them FEEDBACK on their work. HELP them! If you find a bug take the TIME NEEDED to document it RIGHT and submit it WHERE THEY CAN FIND IT via bugtracker or whatever system that developer prefers! For those of you who program if you write a little bit of code or a script that makes things easier for you, send it along with documentation to the Dev of the Rom you're using! You could save him a MASSIVE amount of time by fixing something he won't have to! It's good to also post it where other users can use it but the Devs just don't have time to read a thousand posts to find a truly useable workaround or new nugget of an idea- send it directly to him!

2b. A GREAT way to increase posts is to adopt a newbie.  I've done it often, and it's really rewarding and fun. As a matter of fact a few of you "old hands" were some of those very same newbies I adopted once upon a time.  Ironic how quickly our roles switched and those newbies now school me regularly! Find some poor blubbering completely lost newbie poster and introduce yourself, answer his question and patiently explain the way we do things here and how to correctly use the site.  It won't take long till he won't need you to hold his hand anymore and he can continue on his own...but those first baby steps after buying your first Z are fraught with confusion and doubt!
If each of us were to do this even every other month or so our ACTIVE membership would shoot through the roof.  But all too often I have to grimace through posts that whine and complain about newbies asking dumb questions and people mocking those who are new and naive.  I realize some of us crawled from the womb with encylopedic knowledge about the Linux in general and the Zaurus and every ROM ever released, but most of us came out simply looking for our next meal and pooping our diapers, so be PATIENT with us! I'll NEVER forget how overwhelmed I was when I first logged in to this forum and found out that I could actually change the OS/ROM in my SL-5500! It took me TWO WEEKS to figure out how to reflash it and a MONTH to figure out that the ROM was so new nothing but the basic apps worked yet!

3. This forum is first and foremost a repository of knowledge.
There's been some good comments about sweeping garbage posts and outdated information away and I believe that is wise.... but let's NEVER forget that EVERY piece of info on this site was current to a particular ROM release at one time and there are MANY quiet users who don't post but still use those old ROM's and are satisfied with them who still rely on that information. So PLEASE don't delete it entirely, but rather keep it as out-dated documentation somewhere easy for non-cutting edge users to find.

4. When you make a post take the time to enter as much relevant information as possible so future generations of users will have that info and can put it in context of time/date, ROM release, Hardware platform etc. because EVENTUALLY your exciting new post will be the very "old trash" that drags us down and confuses everyone. If you qualify and document your situation in your post it will ALWAYS be relevant to someone in the future that may stumble into your very footsteps!  

5. Be happy!
Keep the posts upbeat and kind as much as possible.  Mosts posts get made in a moment of utter frustration and are therefore laced with negativity. Likewise be gentle when responding to someone who is already obviously frustrated.  A few sarcastic or ridiculing words spent because the previous poster overlooked the obvious (we ALL have at some time or another) can push ppl from frustrated to embittered.
NOBODY wants to spend time on a set of forums where everyone is always negative and bitter or where the browser is afraid of posting for fear of ridicule!

So really- if we want more posts and more progress we should keep the encouragement of the Devs up, adopt some newbies, be careful and conscientous in our posts and try to keep a positive attitude.  I know it sounds all Boy-scoutish and stuff but it's true.

By the way....when's the next Z due to be released? =)

WOOOooooHOOOOOo!  My first megapost since at LEAST last summer! I never could make a "brief" post... maybe one day. (Don't hold your breath though.)

Nice to see you all again folks, I won't be on much probably until mid-January but it's good to see you all again anyway!

Happy Holidays
-NeuroShock

[Cresho]

nice to see you neuroshock.  Been a while....    

[Ragnorok]

Because of health issues I'm away for looong periods of time ...[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

- Glad to see you, and hope things are better...