"customer service"

[DBTchess]

So, in the last series of messages exchanged with Planet Com, I've really come to see them as dodgy, unrespectable businessmen who care nothing for the customers, only themselves.

Here's the story:

- My order ID is in the 700s.
4G version (like 90% of orders), UK keyboard (which should be standard for a UK based company, right?).
Filled out the keyboard preference form the day it was emailed out, months ago.

You'd think that would mean it would be built in the first batch. Right? Of course not, what a silly idea!
Turns out the first batch was 850 Geminis, not 1000, and the 150 that didn't get built? Mostly UK keyboards.

OK, so they've failed on what it explicitly says in the contribution that it will be in the first batch built.

So when's it being assembled? In the 2nd batch, to be sent out for April.


Well, that must come with some improvements at least, right? Surely that means I'll at least get the X27 processor since it's coming in the 2nd.... nope.
Still getting an X25 purely due to order number. Even though it's being built after they've realised that's the wrong processor. Literally what they told me.

Can I get a refund and cancel the order, considering it hasn't even been built yet? No, of course not...


Perhaps I'm just too used to dealing with companies who actually care about customer service or putting the customer before their own greed... or having any kind of "make it right" policy...
Am I being unrealistic here?


--- admins note ---
this user asked to be deleted, after checking, I have done this.

[Varti]

I think it's not Planet who's the one to blame, but rather the factory they used. They promised 1000 units to be produced and shipped before the Chinese New Year, instead they made only 850 of them. As for why these units still have the x25 CPUs, I believe it's because the PCBs were already manufactured in the first batch, what they didn't manage to do is to assemble and ship them in time, and that would explain also why a refund is not possible at this time. I hope my suspicions to be proved correct by Planet, though.

Varti

[andrewl]

Perhaps I'm just too used to dealing with companies who actually care about customer service or putting the customer before their own greed... or having any kind of "make it right" policy...
Am I being unrealistic here?

This is the important point here, you are not dealing with a company in a standard retail->customer arrangement. You are helping to back a startup who are trying to develop a new product. So quite a bit riskier.

I believe that Planet are 4/5 people plus some external help. I would guess that cashflow it tight and some improvisation is required to make this happen.
For later backers there are still risks, it's possible that some of them may not even get a device delivered.

I don't think greed is the problem, I would guess that there is not much spare money available, their payoff may come in the future if V2 Gemini takes of as a general retail product and/or big organisation buys out the IP (for the first-mover advantage and the keyboard which is the USP).

[Grench]

I think it's not Planet who's the one to blame, but rather the factory they used. They promised 1000 units to be produced and shipped before the Chinese New Year, instead they made only 850 of them. As for why these units still have the x25 CPUs, I believe it's because the PCBs were already manufactured in the first batch, what they didn't manage to do is to assemble and ship them in time, and that would explain also why a refund is not possible at this time. I hope my suspicions to be proved correct by Planet, though.

Varti

Mmm...  No.  There has to be some accountability to the end consumer.

The factory has no responsibility for accountability to the end consumer.  
The factory does have accountability to Planet Computers (the customer of the factory).

Planet Computers most definitely has responsibility for accountability to their customers.  Their customers did not purchase a device 'from the factory', but rather from Planet Computers.

The end consumer has no path of grievance to the factory.  Dealing with those grievances and 'making things right' IS Planet computers responsibility.  Pointing the finger at the factory and claiming that there is nothing that "we" (encompassing them and the consumer) can do about it is quite brazen.

The consumers should not have to put up with shoddy devices from Planet Computers.  Planet Computers needs to get their act together, apologize to consumers with shoddy devices, and establish a proper RMA system to fix it properly.

Meanwhile Planet Computers should not have to put up with shoddy devices from the factory.  The factory needs to get their act together, apologize to planet computers, and send Planet Computers adequate new stock to replace all deficient-on-arrival units.   Returns could then be rebuilt to sell as refurbished or as post 90 day warranty exchange units (nothing that has shipped or touched an end consumer's hands should ever be re-sold as new.)

Yes, the factory messed up.  That should not be the end consumer's mess to deal with.

[Hitherwood]

I think it's not Planet who's the one to blame, but rather the factory they used. They promised 1000 units to be produced and shipped before the Chinese New Year, instead they made only 850 of them. As for why these units still have the x25 CPUs, I believe it's because the PCBs were already manufactured in the first batch, what they didn't manage to do is to assemble and ship them in time, and that would explain also why a refund is not possible at this time. I hope my suspicions to be proved correct by Planet, though.

Varti

Mmm...  No.  There has to be some accountability to the end consumer.

The factory has no responsibility for accountability to the end consumer.  
The factory does have accountability to Planet Computers (the customer of the factory).

Planet Computers most definitely has responsibility for accountability to their customers.  Their customers did not purchase a device 'from the factory', but rather from Planet Computers.

The end consumer has no path of grievance to the factory.  Dealing with those grievances and 'making things right' IS Planet computers responsibility.  Pointing the finger at the factory and claiming that there is nothing that "we" (encompassing them and the consumer) can do about it is quite brazen.

The consumers should not have to put up with shoddy devices from Planet Computers.  Planet Computers needs to get their act together, apologize to consumers with shoddy devices, and establish a proper RMA system to fix it properly.


Meanwhile Planet Computers should not have to put up with shoddy devices from the factory.  The factory needs to get their act together, apologize to planet computers, and send Planet Computers adequate new stock to replace all deficient-on-arrival units.   Returns could then be rebuilt to sell as refurbished or as post 90 day warranty exchange units (nothing that has shipped or touched an end consumer's hands should ever be re-sold as new.)

Yes, the factory messed up.  That should not be the end consumer's mess to deal with.

I have contacted Planet here in the UK about the very poor quality control on the PDA. Lots of serious faults that should have been corrected - like the wobbly keys, the wrong processor installed, USB ports not working etc. The response was that "we are examining faults on a case by case basis", which might mean even more delays getting a proper working unit. I doubt that Planet in the UK have a stock of replacement units as the factory seems to be running under par. Better to insist, if you have a defective unit, for a free connectivity pack or suchlike.

[gidds]

Planet Computers most definitely has responsibility for accountability to their customers.  Their customers did not purchase a device 'from the factory', but rather from Planet Computers.

Technically, we didn't purchase anything — we contributed money to a start-up.  The device is merely a perk that may be sent to contributors; it's not guaranteed.

(That's how Indiegogo and other crowdfunding campaigns work; some campaigns never get as far as a prototype, let alone a shipping product.  Of course, start-ups arguably have a moral responsibility to provide a working product or a refund; but that's not the legal position.)

Now, if Planet Computers were a big, established company, or if I thought they weren't doing their best, then I'd be right with you folks getting angry and considering your options.

But if I understand correctly, they have 4½ people — and I think it's quite amazing what 4½ people have done in less than a year!  And there has been a lot of communication about progress and they've taken on board a lot of feedback over the design.  As far as I can tell, they really are doing their best to deliver the units as quickly as they can, to as high a quality as they can.  From what most people have said so far, it seems that (except for a few known issues) the hardware quality is generally very good indeed.  The software isn't so good yet, but that can be updated after delivery, and there's every indication that Planet are working towards that, as well as helping others to do so.

So I'm willing to cut them a little slack.  Not permanently, of course.  But this must be a tumultuous time for them — especially as they now have all the feedback and complaints from the first batch of backers in addition to all the existing issues.  Right now, I'd rather they spent more of their limited time working on the product than on replying to concerns and complaints.

When my Gemini finally arrives, I'll want it to be absolutely perfect, and anything short of that will be a source of disappointment.  But I hope I'll be able to keep that in proportion.  And I expect that after a few months, when some of these teething problems have been ironed out and the software situation has improved, things will look rather better.

(I suspect that on the Gartner hype cycle, we're approaching the Trough Of Disillusionment.  Which means that the Slope Of Enlightenment is yet to come  )

[petefoth]

Planet Computers most definitely has responsibility for accountability to their customers.  Their customers did not purchase a device 'from the factory', but rather from Planet Computers.

Technically, we didn't purchase anything — we contributed money to a start-up.  The device is merely a perk that may be sent to contributors; it's not guaranteed.

(That's how Indiegogo and other crowdfunding campaigns work; some campaigns never get as far as a prototype, let alone a shipping product.  Of course, start-ups arguably have a moral responsibility to provide a working product or a refund; but that's not the legal position.)

Now, if Planet Computers were a big, established company, or if I thought they weren't doing their best, then I'd be right with you folks getting angry and considering your options.

But if I understand correctly, they have 4½ people — and I think it's quite amazing what 4½ people have done in less than a year!  And there has been a lot of communication about progress and they've taken on board a lot of feedback over the design.  As far as I can tell, they really are doing their best to deliver the units as quickly as they can, to as high a quality as they can.  From what most people have said so far, it seems that (except for a few known issues) the hardware quality is generally very good indeed.  The software isn't so good yet, but that can be updated after delivery, and there's every indication that Planet are working towards that, as well as helping others to do so.

So I'm willing to cut them a little slack.  Not permanently, of course.  But this must be a tumultuous time for them — especially as they now have all the feedback and complaints from the first batch of backers in addition to all the existing issues.  Right now, I'd rather they spent more of their limited time working on the product than on replying to concerns and complaints.

When my Gemini finally arrives, I'll want it to be absolutely perfect, and anything short of that will be a source of disappointment.  But I hope I'll be able to keep that in proportion.  And I expect that after a few months, when some of these teething problems have been ironed out and the software situation has improved, things will look rather better.

(I suspect that on the Gartner hype cycle, we're approaching the Trough Of Disillusionment.  Which means that the Slope Of Enlightenment is yet to come  )

I agree with all of that. I'm in the same position as DBTchess: order number in the 900s, UK edition, didn't come with the first batch because UK keyboard, delivery now due end of March beginning of April. I didn't buy anything - I speculated on the ability of a very small company to deliver a product in roughly a year. I've worked in the software industry, including several years with a major (at the time) manufacturer of mobile phones, and I understand how miraculous it is that Planet have got the Gemini out of the door at all. That it is within six months of their original estimate is pretty good: an early smartphone that I worked on was delivered three years late. OK we had to develop the OS and the Apps as well as the hardware, but Planet's performance has been exceptional, particularly given the size - or lack of it - of the company.

I'll have a Gemini with an X25 chip: that's how it was specced when I placed my bet. I'm not going to moan because people who bet at a different time, got different odds and a different payout. That's how betting works

If you want to insist on having all the "right"s of a purchaser, then don't speculate on Indiegogo: wait till the product is developed and on general sale, then pay significantly more for the finished product. I bet on PC - that bet looks like paying off. I'm happy.

If you feel hard done by, then put your Gemini on eBay when it arrives, and you'll probably walk away with more than you bet originally.

[depscribe]

Agreed. But this does raise some slightly more subtle issues.

For example: Does this mean that there is no warranty on our devices? I suspect that there isn't. Does it mean that PC has no responsibility to us at all?

Most of us made our donations or whatever characterization applies with the idea that we would in return for our faith in PC receive a substantial discount on the product once it shipped. Does this put us in a different class, more- or less-favored, than those who are, also on the Indiegogo site, now paying full price? Do they get a warranty? Or are the odds merely different for them, now that there is an actual product?

And does PC, by offering its products at retail price on Indiegogo and nowhere else, remain absolved from norms of vendor-purchaser relations in perpetuity?

I'm asking honestly, because I really do not know the answers.

[Grench]

But if I understand correctly, they have 4½ people — and I think it's quite amazing what 4½ people have done in less than a year! 

So I'm willing to cut them a little slack.  Not permanently, of course.  But this must be a tumultuous time for them — especially as they now have all the feedback and complaints from the first batch of backers in addition to all the existing issues.  Right now, I'd rather they spent more of their limited time working on the product than on replying to concerns and complaints.

When my Gemini finally arrives, I'll want it to be absolutely perfect, and anything short of that will be a source of disappointment.  But I hope I'll be able to keep that in proportion.  And I expect that after a few months, when some of these teething problems have been ironed out and the software situation has improved, things will look rather better.

Yes, it is a crowdfunding project.  Yes, we all took the ride together.  The expectation was/is that we were helping launch a device company by pre-purchasing a device from them - which we would get if they were able to get things going and off the ground.  $2 Million later, devices are shipping.  Part of that 'company' piece of this implies normal 'company operations'.  Those include an RMA process to replace DOA devices.

But, there is the flip side to shipping physical devices.  Any company that ships to the EU and USA has to meet minimum warranty requirements.  IIRC for the US it's 90 days and the EU it's a year?  Products that arrive DOA, damaged, etc. need to be able to be returned for working products.  That is not a bar too high.

The X25 Vs X27 thing - I'm not overly concerned about that.  If this thing takes off, the X25 owners will have some solid nerd cred for being part of the 'real first batch'.  They joined a crowdfunding campaign and got working hardware - celebrate.

For users who's Gemini showed up with badly soldered and/or broken USB ports, that should be an instant RMA cycle.

The keyboard IS the product for the Gemini.  Without it, the device is just a mid-range Android smartphone.   Having a broken keyboard on arrival for this device should be an RMA solved issue.  Case scuffs, CPU variability, printing variations on the keys - all of that kind of stuff is quaint and excusable.  Broken keyboards and broken USB ports should rank right up there with broken screens.

Software is rough, Linux is nearly MIA - those software situations are fine and expected in any 'new hardware' project.

Devices arriving with physical (not cosmetic) defects is an issue with the factory.  The factory contract should have language stating that, "no more than x% of units leaving the factory will have RMA qualifying defects".  Planning for those defects and replacing user received units that contain those defects IS Planet Computers responsibility.  RMA processing is a normal responsibility that is expected and planned for.  Anything under x% of defects is Planet Computer's responsibility.  Anything more than x% of defects is the factory's responsibility.  What the x is in the x% would be in a contract between Planet Computers and the factory.

I hope that Planet Computers gets the factory set straight to produce flawless units ongoing.  I also hope that they do right by the people who have received faulty/broken units.  Maybe they're on top of it and have their RMA processing up and running and somehow nobody mentions it?

If there is no upstream responsibility or accountability for the suitability or quality of the devices received, all crowdfunding projects may as well end with participants happily receiving a turd in a box.

[bogomips]

While I generally agree with the factory story regarding the CPU, etc-

I do hold some blame to Planet for this mixup.

Did they not run a single benchmark on the pre-prod units or the first few off the production line?
They would have instantly spotted this!

The QA videos Planet shared shows them testing the frigging speakers of the devices en masse, but they didn't bother running a benchmark on it?

Thats like Toyota building a new car, and start selling it in dealerships without ever test driving the car once.

I have a hard time believing that.

[andrewl]

I will only say that if you need a retail service and guarantee, you buy retail and pay retail.

I'm fairly sure that Planet will eventually honour all obligations for faults etc, but it's unreasonable to expect them to do it quickly, while they are still fulfilling backers. Once production is at a surplus over demand, then Planet will be in a position to address these demands.

As we are backers not buyers we should do our bit and help out by supporting this.

[Ifanafi]

"Unrealistic?"

Were I in your shoes, perhaps, no. I understand your frustrated concerns.

"Unrealistic?"

Yes, IMHO, because of impatience and anger.

Just my opinion - besmirching name-calling of Planet's personnel and motives is wrong and undeserved.

The Gemini is a crowd-funded, subject-to-changes project.

Ifanafi

So, in the last series of messages exchanged with Planet Com, I've really come to see them as dodgy, unrespectable businessmen who care nothing for the customers, only themselves.

Here's the story:

- My order ID is in the 700s.
4G version (like 90% of orders), UK keyboard (which should be standard for a UK based company, right?).
Filled out the keyboard preference form the day it was emailed out, months ago.

You'd think that would mean it would be built in the first batch. Right? Of course not, what a silly idea!
Turns out the first batch was 850 Geminis, not 1000, and the 150 that didn't get built? Mostly UK keyboards.

OK, so they've failed on what it explicitly says in the contribution that it will be in the first batch built.

So when's it being assembled? In the 2nd batch, to be sent out for April.


Well, that must come with some improvements at least, right? Surely that means I'll at least get the X27 processor since it's coming in the 2nd.... nope.
Still getting an X25 purely due to order number. Even though it's being built after they've realised that's the wrong processor. Literally what they told me.

Can I get a refund and cancel the order, considering it hasn't even been built yet? No, of course not...


Perhaps I'm just too used to dealing with companies who actually care about customer service or putting the customer before their own greed... or having any kind of "make it right" policy...
Am I being unrealistic here?

[andrewl]

Crowdfunding backing is "investing" and anything received by backers is a gift.

Somebody cited the one example of a UK court case where a judge decided these were actually purchases because of the wording of the IndieGogo site.
In fact the Vega+ campaign is very different, they are a shambles, appear to have squandered the funds, have delivered nothing. The defendant didn't turn up to defend the case because he was afraid somebody would "chop his **** off".  The result of this is that one person received a refund and costs, no others have been able to do the same and I believe that IndieGogo have tightened up T&Cs since, as you would expect.

There is a long list of failures on Kickstarter and IndieGogo where backers got nothing. I'm pretty confident that Planet will take care of all failed units but when I backed I did so knowing that I have no consumer rights, warranties or guarantees. Some projects though, have explicitly given warranties as part of their campaign.

Caveat emptor. If you don't want to take risks, wait for the product to become available retail. The rest of us will try and get it there for you.

[depscribe]

Crowdfunding backing is "investing" and anything received by backers is a gift.

True, especially for those of us who got the backers discount. I rather wonder if the same applies to those who later paid full freight.

[1668880]

Well Planet is screwing themselves and the Gemini because the people who are upset will make it know on social media and the Gemini will then have a hard time getting picked up by cellphone companies. I for one am pissed that I got a X25 instead of a X27 when my order ID was 1115 that is 115 more then the 1000 that was to have the X25 chip. As I noticed my Gemini can not go 12 hours without needing to be recharged and the case gets hot along with the battery when recharging it. As it is now they will have a hard time getting it in stores. I have back a lot of projects and the ones that have delivered have offered a 1 year warranty so for PC to not come out and say what the warranty is  is something I will remember to check for before pledging my hard earned money. So here's hopping that they fix this and can be successful.