Author Topic: Fin/Swe keyboard layout  (Read 1002 times)

Pikku-iikka

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« on: February 17, 2021, 07:41:41 am »
Hello!

It took some time to convince the guy in the mirror, that I really need a longer perspective to my 'writing with a decent keyboard' habit. So I backed the Astro too, after seeing the latest videos and while I'm waiting for my Cosmo to be back from repair. It's on the road to home again... Other than the hinge problem, I've been satisfied with the C.

So: here is a question that I'm not sure if it has been discussed somewhere. Sorry if it has. This is what I just wrote to the Indiegogo Astro ccomments thread (seems to be just as idiotical conversation going on there as it was with Cosmo...):

"""
Hii-ohoi Fin/Swe keyboarders! As a new Astro backer I’m not sure, if this has been discussed: Finnish Gem/Cos users don’t like the Ö/Ä letters’ order in Fin/Swe-layout. I use “Finqwerty hack” in my Cosmo to change Ö/Ä. Others do that too. I suppose Swedes do also, though not sure ’cause our languages are of different origin. In the Q&A video CEO Mr. J.M-F. asked a guy to email Planet in his wish to mod the Dvorak layout. Should we make a wish too: to make Ä the major letter and Ö the minor?
"""

I would be happy to contact Planet in this case. They have been responsive at least with my hinge repairs.


-iikka

Pikku-iikka (alias Little Ike - 194 cm / 130 kg)
Planet Cosmo Communicator
Samsung Note 8, Jolla Phone (Sailfish), Nokia N9 (Meego)
Raspberry Pi 4B / RetroPie setup emulating Amiga.

Zarhan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2021, 01:31:22 pm »
Well, it would be nice if we could select "Finnish" keyboard layout (even if keycaps are same) with only ä/ö swapped. But the finqwerty "hack" has been satisfactory for me.

And yes, Ö is used more in Ä in Swedish, while in Finnish it's vice versa.

Pikku-iikka

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2021, 01:54:23 pm »
Oukei, your last sentence got me convinced, that it is better to carry on as it is. E.g. keep the letter 'Ö' on top of the keycap, while 'Ä' comes with Fn pressed simultaneously. No suggestions to Planet for changing the order. After all, there is twice as much people in Sweden compared to Finland, and maybe twice as much Planet devices too - though nobody knows that but Planet... So the majority speaks.

Finqwerty works seamlessly and well. Some functions are not in right places, I suppose that is because it was first made for the Gemini (?). Luckily swapping the layout is easy and quick. I do that often, since I do some writing in Russian too. Fin/Swe - Finqwerty - Russian.

Btw, I have printed Russian letters into a sticker sheet, black background, white letters. Then cut the tiny letters off and sticked them into the front side of Cosmo's keycaps. Nearly microscopic work - but works still.


-iikka
Pikku-iikka (alias Little Ike - 194 cm / 130 kg)
Planet Cosmo Communicator
Samsung Note 8, Jolla Phone (Sailfish), Nokia N9 (Meego)
Raspberry Pi 4B / RetroPie setup emulating Amiga.

Daniel W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2021, 02:40:11 pm »
And yes, Ö is used more in Ä in Swedish, while in Finnish it's vice versa.
As natively Swedish I'm not sure I agree, and neither does Wikipedia, it seems, which states that about 1.79% of Swedish consists of Ä, while 1.34% consists of Å and 1.30% consists of Ö. They, in turn, seems to have got their data from Pratical cryptography. Their data, based on some 90MB of raw text, suggests that Ö is the least used of the "special" Swedish characters, so swapping Ö and Ä on the Fin/Swe layout would seem to make sense from a letter frequency perspective.

On a side note, in Swedish, Q, W, X and Z together makes up less than 0.4% of written text.

Edit:My link tags got a bit chewed up. They should work now.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 03:18:42 pm by Daniel W »

Zarhan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2021, 09:58:05 am »
As natively Swedish I'm not sure I agree, and neither does Wikipedia

Standing corrected. It's just an impression that I have of Swedish. "Ö, ö, hö ö; hö ö mö" and all that...

With Finnish the difference is definitely more pronounced, http://practicalcryptography.com/cryptanalysis/letter-frequencies-various-languages/finnish-letter-frequencies/ says Ä:3.58, Ö:0.44.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 09:59:55 am by Zarhan »

Daniel W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2021, 04:08:14 pm »
While designing their Fin/Swe, layout I guess Planet, when they saw that a Fin/Swe PC keyboard has eleven letters on two of its rows, just moved the two rightmost letters to the Fn layer and called it good, thinking "Well, Finns and Swedes are both used to have Ö next to L", which isn't incorrect, but perhaps not the best adaptation to a "no more than ten letters per row" layout. Unless sufficient noise can be made about it, I doubt they will change it, though. If they'd make an official keyboard remapping tool, they could start selling a selection of key caps to those wanting to customize. I'd gladly pay €10 for an Ä key cap.

What makes Ä so relatively common in Swedish, is probably the word "är", which means "is". According to that cryptography page, it's the sixth most common Swedish word, after i(I), och(and), en(a), av(of) and som(as). We find an Å in the eighth most common word på(on) while the first Ö is found in the twelfth most common word för(for). In the top thirty Swedish words, there are a few more with Å and Ä in them, but no Ö.

On a side note, han(he) is the sixteenth most common word, while hon(she) doesn't even make the top thirty. It seems we still are a fair bit away from gender equality...

gymbo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2021, 11:21:51 am »
What makes Ä so relatively common in Swedish, is probably the word "är", which means "is". According to that cryptography page, it's the sixth most common Swedish word, after i(I), och(and), en(a), av(of) and som(as). We find an Å in the eighth most common word på(on) while the first Ö is found in the twelfth most common word för(for). In the top thirty Swedish words, there are a few more with Å and Ä in them, but no Ö.
(My highlighting...)

Isn't "i" in Swedish the same as in Norwegian: "In" or "inside"?

I know that "I" is used in some Norwegian dialects as "I", but don't think I have seen/heard it as such in Swedish??

MattiP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2021, 03:47:43 pm »
I thought the lack of full Nordic keyboard would be a bigger problem than it is, but I found it pretty easy to change that internally¹. What on the other hand is a problem (at least for me) is that enter is just right of Ö so I accidentally press enter instead of the anticipated '.

¹ in my mind.

Pikku-iikka

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2021, 02:48:48 pm »
On a side note, han(he) is the sixteenth most common word, while hon(she) doesn't even make the top thirty. It seems we still are a fair bit away from gender equality...

We finns only have the word "hän", which doesn't tell anything about the gender. Makes me think whether we are ahead or behind of other nations / languages...


-iikka
Pikku-iikka (alias Little Ike - 194 cm / 130 kg)
Planet Cosmo Communicator
Samsung Note 8, Jolla Phone (Sailfish), Nokia N9 (Meego)
Raspberry Pi 4B / RetroPie setup emulating Amiga.

Daniel W

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2021, 07:21:32 pm »
Isn't "i" in Swedish the same as in Norwegian: "In" or "inside"?
You are quite correct. In Swedish "i" means the equivalent of "in", which is what I tried to type. Apparently, a typo occurred though (that lost the "n" and, somehow, made the remaining "i" upper case), which I won't be fixing now, since that would make your question seem strange ;). Well spotted. And, yes, "i" can be used to mean "inside" too. I just picked (what I think is) the most common translation.

Zarhan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 08:09:15 am »
The latest Indiegogo update brought quite welcome news. They are releasing a keyboard layout editor:

Quote
Keyboard Layout Editor

    Planet's new Keyboard Layout Editor allows Astro users to modify their keyboard layouts.
    You can assign characters, system functions or start an app by pressing a physical key.
    You also specify actions for each key with key modifiers such as Shift, Control and Fn for more assignable key combinations.
    The Keyboard Layout Editor allows you to customise you favourite layouts, personalising your Astro to make it more powerful.

So you can then create whatever layout you wish if this works as advertised.

gymbo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
    • View Profile
Re: Fin/Swe keyboard layout
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2021, 10:29:11 pm »
The latest Indiegogo update brought quite welcome news. They are releasing a keyboard layout editor:

Quote
Keyboard Layout Editor

    Planet's new Keyboard Layout Editor allows Astro users to modify their keyboard layouts.
    You can assign characters, system functions or start an app by pressing a physical key.
    You also specify actions for each key with key modifiers such as Shift, Control and Fn for more assignable key combinations.
    The Keyboard Layout Editor allows you to customise you favourite layouts, personalising your Astro to make it more powerful.

So you can then create whatever layout you wish if this works as advertised.

I'm more interested in setting up shortcuts myself (yes, I know that there are apps out there that does that already, but I haven't bothered to install any of them, and having it "natively" is an advantage), although the possibility to change around on the layout itself is also welcome. (And as most keys should be interchangeable, you could keep the "labels" correct as well.)