Who's Got To Go? Qtopia, Opie?

[mussi]

Seems like somebody more or less squarely hit the nail....if we had to choose between Qtopia and Opie to stay with the Z (we'll leave X11 ROMs like Cacko aside), which should go according to you?

Also read this article for some further clarification. However, I positively don't want a PalmOS layer stacked ontop of Linux just for some nice and fancy apps, and stuff that has an UI I personally ran from two years ago.

Just one thing - the Z should have the original Graffitiset handwriting recognition.

[lpotter]

What's the use of this poll, really? Opie and Qtopia are both equally capable. There is room for both, as well as GPE. Choice is a good thing.
Neither Qtopia nor Opie are going away.

[mussi]

The point is more that I wanted to communicate the fact that the Linux PDA market is pretty small and that concentrating could really, really, help. Think of what would have happened if there were two versions of PalmOS with different widgets, and apps compatible with one wouldn't be compatible with the other. Where would Palm Inc be today if that had happened?

Choice is not bad either, but we have to take our picks - having to carry two PDAs to have all the apps we'd like/need, or decide one's going to be sacrified.

[zbones]

What happened to the keep both option?

If you want  a palm, then go Buy one!

If you want only the one rom, and like having things imposed on you then buy a pocket pc and enter their world of DRM and expensive closed source apps that don't work.

The zaurus is about choice. That's the whole point of open source And that's why I bought two of them.

If you don't like having a choice then go away from here, and don't try to impose your silly ideas on us!

[tg]

I agree with zbones 100%.
Zaurus is not about market share - it is and should remain cutting edge pda/mini laptop where people can experiment with whtever they choose. If you want a stable pda you can still use it as that if you stick with cacko (for sure it will be better and eve more stable than palm in a day or two when maslovsky releases new version). If new cacko will still not be stable enough for you ebay your Z and go with palm/pocketpc (my condolences if you decide to go there).

[mussi]

I couldn't impose any ideas on anybody, but the point is still open - given the bad state of the Linux PDA market in Europe and NA, we need something to become a bigger 'target' for PDA (that's why I left X11 ROMs out of the equation as they don't represent a real 'PDA' to me but rather a micro-workstation which has it's on requirements, merits and specs) manufacturers.

Having at least two different GUI toolchains (Qtopia, Opie) and multiple ROMs (Sharp,TKCRom for the first) doesn't really help, and as no hardware manufacturer who will put up with that, and there are preciously few hardwares where we can run on right now.

Except for newer HW from Sharp, did we get anything from other manufacturers which we can install Linux on? Did HP, after the original IPaqs, enable them for Linux. Go looking at the recent hardware (like the iPaq 2215, 2415, 4155, 4355, 4705 - execpt that they don't run Linux (yet)) and think about it. If I were HP (without Carly Fiorina - she's only interested in selling ink cartridges and such), I wouldn't start developing for a moving target like the current environment. And if we present a big manufacturer with a stable OS and widget environment (and of course the development/untested branches as well), we could maybe draw a manufacturer onto our side. Whether Qtopia or Opie - that's the open debate, and the goal of this poll to find out. Maybe this poll will also turn out some very interesting results. about the preferences of users.

We should make sure we do not depend on one hardware supplier, but we should rather expand the hardware possibilities soon - what happens if Sharp decides to drop all Linux Zaurii? Then the question of this poll becomes more or less a moot point. However, before it comes to that, we should concentrate our meager resources.

(and about all fears: before I buy a Pocket PC machine, I'll probably jump off a cliff, and Palm so far is dead in water as the Treo 650 still sucks, and that's about the only machine that could make me drool...).

[nilch]

Looking back a few years, this was the same argument being layed down againt Linux - the many flavours of Linux - Mandrake, RedHat, Debian etc etc - where each had its own installer, its own base system (that was why the LSB project was started).

And the argument went that why would any manufacturer taget such a moving market - where there was no standard - there was no ONE single OS base to port to.

But inspite of that Linux has been catching on - its not a consumer OS like Windows is , and maybe will never be, not because there is not ONE single choice like Windows, but because Linux never really started out to be so. It was totally an OS meant for choice. The same argument goes for Gnome and KDE. Now we can split hairs over whether having just one system would have furthered that system more in the market share sense of the term, but do the Linux users care ?

I object to distributions which just package only either Gnome or KDE and not both (apart from other windows managers). So do many others.

Linux on Zaurus is the same option provider to you. You can choose your base of softwares and GUI toolkit on the same hardware.  In fact now it seems that the big corporation are catching on to the multiple choice option seeing that its more of a pro-consumer thing than looking at it as a market share thing.
I dont think the open source philosophy is at all about capturing market share, its more of a choice option firstly to users and that what is being carried on in the Zaurus world.

I see Opie and Qtopia as spreading the world of Linux PDA further than splitting the market share as you seem to see it. While Qtopia is good for the commercial world, where companies can embrace it within their business practices and contracts based systems, opie brings flexibility and innovation (and even eye candy if you want to call it that) and the symbiosis of Qtopia and Opie in some way is good for Linux PDA's.

And really the poll for such a topic was a silly idea, inspite of your arguments and debates. The debate might be worth it, but looking at the whole open source way of working at things in such a black and white manner just makes one feel that you don't understand open source and what it stands for in the first place.

[ThC]

You're talking about palm getting bigger and bigger due to it's OS but you also tell yourself that palm is dying because of this OS not evolving enough... that's what the opensource is all about, evolving again and again and so you need to have stable OS and some which are not as stable but always using the latest improvements... I think the question asked in first time is no use because it's allready known that Qtopia focuses on making a stable OS with widgets and everything while OPIE tends to do the same thing keeping every bit opensource and adding some more eyecandy but  with less stability and no comercial management at all ... if companies want to build a linux pda they can ask Qtopia to build them an OS ... But I think PDA manufacturers aren't interrested in putting linux in their PDA when windows is still the #1 OS for the PC market .
Why would they ? Sharp just stopped selling Zauruses in US because they were'nt selling enough ... manufacturers want to make money so they need something that people will be able to use out of the box and wont fear ... and that's WindozeCE
What made PalmOS being able to have such a success was the fact they've been available before winCE PDAs so first pda users got used to it.
btw don't get me wrong ... I still believe a Linux based PDA could make it's way to US&EU markets but it will need a huge marketing campaign to be sold to people who are not using linux at home as they would have to see that a linux pda can be as easy of use as a winCE one

[mussi]

But I think PDA manufacturers aren't interrested in putting linux in their PDA when windows is still the #1 OS for the PC market .

Yet Palm, despite living in a Windows world, is still quite atop of the pile when looking at the market share. The problem here is more synchronizing. Mr PHB wants to have a PDA that syncs with Outlook, or possibly Lotus Notes.. If he can do that, he's mostly happy (oh well, being able ot install some funky presentation tools makes it even better, but that's what basically PDAs are all about.

In other words - we not only need an OS, but the tools on the host OS - unless, of course, we manage to get a PDA/micro laptop out that's a 'real' computer with all apps Mr PHB needs on it's own. The oQo is actually a step into that direction, and I don't think that idea is so bad.

The 'Tools around the PDA' is actually what keeps Palm in place, despite it being not a Windows PDA.

If we have the fool-proof 'tools around the pda' that make synchronizing a breeze, on PC and Mac (and of course, Linux), we might win with a market share, and of course, more enthusiasts. These tools must work on any PIM software on the Z, hence there's certainly ONE place where differences in the implementation would be disastrous. That's why I'm pretty allergic to KoPi, KaPi and how they're called (the other is usability on 320x240 screens - IMO KaPI and KoPI have been built to be used on Tosa).

However, the unification of PIM formats will not happen without some miracle, at least at the current point. IntelliSync does not really work with the MicroKDE pims.

So currently we have three issues:

a) apps
 synchronizing
c) kernel/base components (like glibc, libstdc++)
d) graphics toolchain/widgetset

As pointed out before, both are equally important. If we can sync correctly, Joe User might forget about the apps a little (unless they're games - but there we have LibSDL, and they're not too badly bound to a GUI toolkit, except for some commercial stuff).

Addressing the apps: There are a few cool things in QTopia, as well as Opie. When looking at ZSI, there are some worthy things . GPE also got a few interesting things.

So in order to have a few cool commercial games, we at least need to have part c) somehow fixed. Sorry folks for open source development, but I haven't seen killer games from there (apart from Sokoban, but that's for people that also like ABAP and COBOL  ).

This now leads to the bitter fact without a stable c), we will not likely get a stable and dependend d), which will in turn create problems with a), and sooner or later with . If we get  running like a champ (which partly also depends on a) - but  can be realized with a library, it doesn't forcibly have to be built into the app), we can nail down c (to which we're more or less bound as long as we want SD/MMC compatibility), and of course, then comes again the original question of the poll - d). If we can decide on one Widget toolset, and every developer sticks with that decision, we might soon see some really, really cool apps, not forcibly open-source, though. What we all want are cool apps, and maybe even really useful apps. They come at a (non-monetary) price, though. In Japan, there are apps for the Z, and they mainly flourish over there because most Japanese Zaurus users probably use the Sharp ROM.

If we can get a-d together and make it work like it should, we stand a chance of having further HW, and maybe MickeyL and CoreDump hired by some company that develops Opie for a living.

However, I also suggest to read MickeyLs posting in that thread
for some further thoughs on the whole debate. I'm not completely agreeing with him, but the he's got a point on that matter, and he's the developer.

[ScottYelich]

I voted keep both.

Scott

[acpkendo]

I voted keep both too.  Since both are open source, there's no reason not to.  This lets good ideas from each side propagate to the other.  Maybe its not necessarily consolidation that's needed, but rather cooperation.  In this respect, I'm excited to see what Trolltech and Opie can learn from each other, especially given that lpotter is active in both communities.

Maybe from here on out, companies like Hancom will port their apps to Qtopia 2.1. . . but they will be just as usable on OZ.  Maybe Trolltech will release a ROM for a fee that includes a version of Intellisync. . . I'd lay down a couple bucks to have 100% Outlook compatibility again.  Or maybe Qtopia Desktop will evolve to the point where it can work with lots of different e-mail/groupware clients (I like the look of Mozilla Lightning) due to increased interest from the community.

The point here being, Trolltech's stepping up to fill the void they will definitely bring some good things to us poor folks who paid for our Z's.

[technojunkie]

Keep both:

Qtopia already has compatibility with some OPIE apps with compatibility layer. If both sides of the house work together and establish a cross platform API there shouldn't be much problem for developers to make one app work for both platforms.

As for QT 2.1 and syncing etc.. Lets not hold our breath. To be honest if I were running Trolltech I wouldn't have any interest in developing for a dead platform. (Before you flame me, think about it, Sharp has left NA and Europe with no intention of returning. They took their ball and went home, and from what I have seen the japanese users don't have as much interest as we do in developing new ROMs etc.)

If we want those things its on us to make it happen. When QT 2.1 hits we can port it to zaurus ( we probably should move to the 2.6 kernel, but thats a different argument) It won't be easy but I'm sure It'll happen eventually

If we want perfect sync to outlook, we have to dive into M$ hell and code a syncronization tool. Otherwise go get a copy of Ko/Pi and Ka/Pi and use it. sure the sync takes a couple more steps, but its functional.

Personally I use my zaurus as a PDA for Pim and sync. I keep my ebooks on it, a few pics of my kids, and that's about it...  I do some apache/PhP/MySQL on it cuz I wanna develop some PhP/MySQL databases to run on the Z. I can't do all of this with Palm or Wince, But I can with OPIE and QT.

My PhP/SQL stuff will work regardless of my GUI as long as I have a browser, so as long as my GUI has Pim/sync I'm happy.

[lpotter]

As for QT 2.1 and syncing etc.. Lets not hold our breath. To be honest if I were running Trolltech I wouldn't have any interest in developing for a dead platform. (Before you flame me, think about it, Sharp has left NA and Europe with no intention of returning. They took their ball and went home, and from what I have seen the japanese users don't have as much interest as we do in developing new ROMs etc.)

If we want those things its on us to make it happen. When QT 2.1 hits we can port it to zaurus ( we probably should move to the 2.6 kernel, but thats a different argument) It won't be easy but I'm sure It'll happen eventually

_Qtopia_ 2.1 syncs fine with Qtopia Desktop 2.1.  The Zaurus might be dead in the US / Euro market, but Sharp is not Trolltech's only customer. Qtopia Phone devices will be emerging this next year in places, as well as new handheld devices.

There is no 'porting' Qtopia 2.1 to the Zaurus, it already runs on it.

[mussi]

FYI: https://www.oesf.org/forums/inde...?showtopic=9583

We found out who was the culprit who watered down the poll. Lousy Thinned-Vodka-drinkers.  

At any rate, only the two first options were mine. And actually, I wanted a decision on which one to keep. MickeyL, to that point, made some very good points to keep neither.

[ScottYelich]

ok, what is a good vodka?

is there a poll somewhere?

Scott