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Author Topic: lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'  (Read 6702 times)

Anonymous

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« on: December 09, 2003, 01:58:47 pm »
As a long term debian user and linux addict in general, I use to have high expectations on a software, that claims to be \'stable\'. I found that the attribute \'stable\' fits neither to OZ, nor to Opie (0.9.3 to 1.0.3).

A clean flashed Zaurus with OZ 3.2 (Opie 0.9.3) is able to do what one can expect it does. A few examples:

- Aqpkg offers users to decide to install to CF or SD cards. Unfortunately the linking to the root directory tree often fails on vfat cards. This is not a particular weekness of Apkg. The packages unnecessarily have symlinks that point to other symlinks which makes them unusable, if Aqpkg tries to link those to the root tree (while they are - of course - unusable on the vfat card)

- Opie offers a voice recording software. It doesn\'t work (at least not on the \'stable\' version of Opie) - This is a downside compared to the sharp rom, that is concealed on OZ\'s website in the section \'Why OZ\'.

- Opie\'s \'stable\' Version still doesn\'t have a working Mediaplayer.

- Opie 0.9.3 has significant problems when syncing with my debian system. Opie 1.0.x has not Problems, but 0.9.3 comes with \'stable\' OZ 3.2 .

I could give much more examples, but I don\'t want you to think I don\'t like OZ and Opie. Both are really cool - the more they are in conjunction.

I only complain about declaring them as \'stable\'. They are cool, they are geeky, they look nice, but they are not \'stable\'. I need a working PDA, and I could have hesitated twice if I had known those problems before.

Anyway, it looks like Opie and OZ are close to be really usable for common tasks (PDA-stuff, reliable syncing, linux desktop support (kitchensync?), MP3-player, PDF- and HTML Document Reading). But right now, they are anything but useful in environments, where you have to rely on your PDA.

I hope the Cross-Compiling docu\'s from zaurus.com are soon re-available, so I could set up my machine and try to produce a few patches.....




Martin
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Debugger

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2003, 02:02:14 pm »
That was me (Debugger) posting the issue above, but I forgot to log-in.... :-)

So it was not anonymous.
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Mickeyl

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2003, 04:21:53 pm »
Hmmm - you understand the difference between a distribution and an application? Example: I don\'t expect my Linux Mandrake 9.2 to not ship with a few release candidates, beta versions or even unstable applications. Bottom line: OZ\' versioning and status is independent from Opie\'s.
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Debugger

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2003, 06:27:20 pm »
The differences between distribution and application concerning the \'stable\' attribute seems to be different in debian and mandrake. Debian is only declared stable when packaged applications are known to run stable for a certain time. This doesn\'t mean, that you could not run into a rare situation where an application crashes, but the stable OZ contains applications that rarely or never work under _usual_ conditions (a clean flash and install).

Besides of that: If I use OZ stable (3.2) and Opie stable (1.0) I should expect a stable system. But it\'s far from being stable - independent of what part, the OS or the application, causes the malfunctions and crashes. Using a \'stable\' OZ and an \'unstable\' Opie (0.9.3) means what? OS is stable but applications may crash?

Hm. What is the suggested setup (concerning ROM/Opie combinations) to get a stable PDA that can play MP3 and view HTML and PDF documents and run Java-Applications using jeode? (Linux must be able to do that job, please...).


Martin
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Mickeyl

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2003, 06:31:15 pm »
The SharpROM is considered stable. You can install individual Opie applications on it.
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treke

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2003, 06:40:31 pm »
Stable. As opposed to something we compiled and released yesterday and hoped worked.

3.2 actually had a testing process that it made it though, and for the most part was a decent stable release at the time. Now it\'s old and the newer stuff should work much better, but the testing process was mostly a matter of making images boot.

3.3.5 is not meant to be a completely stable release, it\'s meant to hold people over because the next stable release is a long ways off.
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lardman

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2003, 07:28:27 pm »
OZ 3.3.5 is thus far (fingers crossed ;-)) stable. I\'ve had to do some fiddling to get the Hancom apps installed properly, Opera needs a symlink to be made, etc., but these aren\'t packaged as being stable for OZ in any case. That said the OZ & Opie combo has been completely stable.

PDF seems fine to me, that said I suppose it might depend on what you installed, I use pdf2 (which Mickeyl was commenting ought to be merged in somehow).

I agree with you that if the \'stable\' version of mplayer2 doesn\'t work it ought to be removed. I use mplayer with the xmms frontend without any problems.

I\'ve not tried Jeode since flashing over from OZ3.2, but it certainly worked fine there...


Simon
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zenyatta

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2003, 06:45:09 am »
I have to agree with Debugger. I have a strong dislike for unpolished software and unfortunately \"stable\" and \"up-to-date\" don\'t go together very well in the OZ/Opie world (lack of developers no doubt). My private buglist has 31 entries and it\'s by no means comprehensive.

Of course, I\'m itching to do something about it but I\'m progressing very slowly. I\'ve downloaded the toolchain, QtE sources and Opie sources but I can\'t find time to set it up. I did track down 2 bugs just by looking at the sources, though, so I hope to be of use once I\'m up to speed...

z.
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Debugger

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2003, 07:21:44 am »
// qote from zenyatta
I\'ve downloaded the toolchain, QtE sources and Opie sources but I can\'t find time to set it up.
// end of quote

This is exactly my problem. Usually I\'m spending my worktime _and_ my sparetime in coding C++, but I don\'t like to mess with unusable development enviroments and I can\'t find decent docu to get the toolchain working. Can someone verify the following requirements?

1. a cross compiler that generates arm executables on my x86 system

2. an arm-compiled Qt/Embedded to be able to create arm Qt/E executables

3. an x86-compiled Qt/Embedded to be able to develop on the x86 host

4. a x86-compiled version of the compiler (see 1.) to develop on x86 host

I found toolchains, that seem to have a working gcc-2.95.3 cross compiler
that can make arm executables.

I also found (in that toolchains) a version of Qtopia and qpe/qvfb that works on
my system - so it must be x86 compiled.

I expect now, that for suitable tests I have to use a 2.95.3 compiler version
to get a working set of development tools. But my system has version
3.3.2 installed (which I need for my regular job). Unfortunately, 3.3.2 is
unable to compile the sources of gcc-2.95.3 (!).

So I\'m stuck. But maybe I get something totally wrong. Maybe decent environment
variables could help me out here. I don\'t know exactly what is needed: QTDIR / QPEDIR /
QTEDIR, ...... I wished zaurus.com didn\'t went down with all that
docu and software. sigh.




Martin
(btw: can someone send me the applet to switch of the screen on a 5500? It\'s unavailable :-(   )
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tumnus

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lax interpretation of the word \'stable\'
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2003, 07:41:18 am »
Debugger, you seem to have everything setup correctly. I presume you followed this howto: http://www.zaurususergroup.com/modules.php...ompiler%20Setup

For the x86 gcc 2.95.3 I used this: http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/suse/8.1/i386...5.3-7.i586.html
It works fine for me, but that it to be expected since I have SuSE 8.1. It may well work for other distros though.

This is all fine for general Qtopia development, but I was under the impression that Opie required a few things to be done differently. An OPIE developer can probably clarify that.
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Mickeyl

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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2003, 08:29:34 am »
Quote
Of course, I\'m itching to do something about it but I\'m progressing very slowly. I\'ve downloaded the toolchain, QtE sources and Opie sources but I can\'t find time to set it up. I did track down 2 bugs just by looking at the sources, though, so I hope to be of use once I\'m up to speed...

Great. That\'s the spirit!

Good luck.
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Mickeyl

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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2003, 08:31:44 am »
Quote
I expect now, that for suitable tests I have to use a 2.95.3 compiler version
to get a working set of development tools. But my system has version
3.3.2 installed (which I need for my regular job). Unfortunately, 3.3.2 is 
unable to compile the sources of gcc-2.95.3 (!). 

What do you want a 2.95.3 for? I always develop Opie on X86 using my hosts gcc 3.x.
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Debugger

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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2003, 04:54:59 pm »
Quote
Debugger, you seem to have everything setup correctly. I presume you followed this howto: http://www.zaurususergroup.com/modules.php...ompiler%20Setup

I tried to, but none of the mentioned downloads work and such packages doesn\'t exist on Debian.

Quote
For the x86 gcc 2.95.3 I used this: http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/suse/8.1/i386...5.3-7.i586.html
It works fine for me, but that it to be expected since I have SuSE 8.1. It may well work for other distros though.

Unfortunately not. But I made a bit progress in compiling it myself. I did compile, but make install fails. This looks fixable.

Quote
This is all fine for general Qtopia development, but I was under the impression that Opie required a few things to be done differently. An OPIE developer can probably clarify that.

That would be nice :-)



Martin
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Debugger

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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2003, 05:00:13 pm »
Quote
What do you want a 2.95.3 for? I always develop Opie on X86 using my hosts gcc 3.x.

In earlier projects, I ran into trouble linking applications that where compiled with GCC 2.x with an application compiled with GCC 3.x . So I expected to need 2.95.3 - to more so as this version is mentioned in almost any docu I\'ve found. Maybe that\'s debian specific, but I must confess, I didn\'t try this on Opie. Actually, I didn\'t try anything Opie yet, just plain C++ for arm and a bit playing around with that qvfb and qpe stuff. Im slowly getting into it, but as I have less time, it will take a while.



Martin
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