Poll

Are you interested in more choice?

No, I love my Zaurus and will stay forever with Zaurus
10 (13.3%)
Yes, I would like to have a low priced Linux PDA
27 (36%)
Yes, I would like a Linux based Smartphone
31 (41.3%)
Undecided
7 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 75

Author Topic: More Choice In Linux Based Pdas And Smartphones  (Read 19668 times)

Mickeyl

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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 05:35:58 am »
Indeed. If those damn phones were finally available (hurry up, folks, hurry up, I'm waiting...), there would surely be a lot of interest in 3rd party software which in turn makes more software available for similar platforms like the Zaurus.

And who knows... perhaps some nice apps on the phone generate more interest to larger devices as well ("This is a cool application - I want to run that also on 640x480, not on my tiny phone. Where's the hardware").

I could be just dreaming here, though...
Cheers,

Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | Embedded Linux Freelancer | www.Vanille-Media.de
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mikew

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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2005, 06:56:41 am »
How about a LINUX PDA & phone running Qt with a decent keyboard, someone claims to be developing one at http://www.road-gmbh.de/produkte/index_01.html
C3200, C760 Cacko 1.23 ROM, 1gb SD, 1gb CF, WiFi, Imate Jasjar & Psion Netbook

Mickeyl

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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2005, 08:08:05 am »
It's very nice, but please remain seated when you ask for the price...
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Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | Embedded Linux Freelancer | www.Vanille-Media.de
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guylhem

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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2005, 10:15:25 am »
Never mind the price. I'll be happy to pay 1500 Eur/$2000 if this is not vapourware to get at least an all in one solution. I want it all (gsm, bluetooth, wifi, mini hardisk, 128 Mb of ram at least, a touch-typing capable keyboard, and a good battery life) and I'm ready to pay the price if it ever comes to the market. I'm dead serious - when I purchased a Vaio C1VE I paid much more for no wifi, no bluetooth, no gsm and an unreadable screen in sunlight)

That'd be a business tool much easier to use that what I have now, and I'm quite sure I'd sell that to clients currently consulting me for similar solutions.

The only other solution ATM is to wire a gprs module to my 6000W serial port, and wire the audio out to a bluetooth chip. At least a full week of work - bad deal (cause I'll only make one), even if I'm seriously considering it after getting in touch with the road-gmbh company and getting no reply at all :-(
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 10:18:34 am by guylhem »

mikew

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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2005, 10:41:25 am »
I would also be willing to pay that kind of money as a business device, suspect a significant number of other business users would also be willing.

Keyboard looks as good as the Psion 5mx in fact the whole device looks like an updated Psion 5mx with built in phone.

Office apps are only viewers perhaps TextMaker or Hancom apps could be ported over.

Mikew
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adf

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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2005, 10:58:57 am »
I think I wouldn't.  If I were to spend that amount on a  handheld it might go for an oqo (and a cheap phone.) More likely I'll stick w/ the Z.
**3100 Zubuntu Jaunty,(working on Cacko dualboot), 16G A-Data internal CF, 4G SD, Ambicom WL-1100C Cf, linksys usb ethernet,  BelkinF8T020 BT card, Belkin F8U1500-E Ir kbd, mini targus usb mouse, rechargeble AC/DC powered USB hub, psp cables and battery extenders.

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silvio

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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2005, 11:04:56 am »
Quote
I would also be willing to pay that kind of money as a business device, suspect a significant number of other business users would also be willing.

Keyboard looks as good as the Psion 5mx in fact the whole device looks like an updated Psion 5mx with built in phone.

Office apps are only viewers perhaps TextMaker or Hancom apps could be ported over.

Mikew
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Yes - this will be a nice smartpone but devices in this price class does'nt extend the Linux PDA market. Psion PDAs was abortive because they was build for business only.

Cheap consumer Linux PDAs as door openers are strongly needed. No more nerd and business devices...

regards,
Silvio
SL-C860, Cacko 1.22 lite and many toys.
My Zaurus stuff

handheld-linux

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« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2005, 12:41:55 pm »
Dear all,

first of all thank you very much and sorry for the long time to prepare an answer.

I have carefully studied the poll and your comments and come to the following conclusions:

There is a clear (winning) quote for a Linux based Smartphone: 45%
And a second winner is interestingly a low priced Linux PDA: 31%

In total there have been 51 votes out of 6800 members of this forum (136 pages with 50 members each) which is below 1%.

I find there are essentially three groups ("market segments"):

Smartphone
* basically a P910/Nokia 9300/Treo like device but with (open access) Linux
* if possible with WiFi and/or Bluetooth integrated
* CF is not required (size)
* but SDIO and USB (host)
* display can be smaller than a PDA (Zaurus) something between 2.5 and 3 inch
* minimum is QVGA (320x240) resolution
* processor speed is not of highest importance (300MHz seen as sufficient)
* localized keyboard
* external camera (removeable)
* Qtopia Smartphone Edition

Micro Laptop
* basically want something substantially better than a C3000 with increased power (memory, harddisk size, processor speed)
* integrated WiFi or Bluetooth
* better battery life
* localized keyboard
* Linux 2.6 based

Low End PDA
* basically a new SL-A300- as small and light as possible
* could be a C1000 without keypad and no CF slot
* but should have SDIO, USB host
* Bluetooth/WiFi integrated would be nice
* VGA display
* no keypad, portrait mode only
* US $175 if possible (which I doubt...)

There have been some comments on the software but my impression was that Qtopia as the initial system is ok if all the required sources are available to create custom ROMs.

A great idea IMHO is to use the Penguin as the Brand/Logo and not the ZUG since I think the Tux logo can be used freely by everybody.

So, what are the next steps?

I intend to contact the manufacturer of these devices with these results and let's see what they think about such a project.

With many thanks to all contributors,
Nikolaus Schaller

The Handheld-Linux Shop
http://www.handheld-linux.com

davidmcnaught16

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« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2005, 07:03:12 am »
I'd imagine it would be fairly easy to make a PDA that beats the Zaurus for a similar price.  I find it frustrating that there are PDA's out there like the X50v, packed with features for a price less than a Zaurus C.  I'm going to waffle a bit, please forgive me If I say a load of rubbish:

I'd love a laptop replacement PDA, and the Z is nearly there, but it needs:

- Bigger screen (Easily possible in the same form factor with re-designed hinge)
- Better software (Improved PDF viewer, Web browser with Flash plugin (Necessary nowadays!), good sync software)
- Built in Wifi & Bluetooth (Wi-max or whatever in the future maybe?)
- Built in Mic (Not crucial, but not hard to do or expensive either!)
- Improved speed (Why when typing a large document can I type faster than the letters come up on  the screen? An old 33Mhz PC could do better than that, maybe it's software?)
- Smaller thickness if possible (Maybe replace CF slot with an SDIO, make battery thinner but wider/longer)
- Maybe a Docking station (Mouse, keyboard, Monitor, maybe USB & ethernet)

Most of this should be fairly achievable for the same price as a Z C series.  Just take an X50v, stick a keyboard & better screen on it, put linux on it, invest in some software development and you and nearly there!

Do some decent marketing, and who knows, it could be a profitable product.  I recon a good 'laptop replacement' would sell. It would do all that the average person wants, and fit in their pocket.  (I know winCE sub notebooks were not a great success, but their software was fairly limited, and marketing was not great).

When wireless always on internet connections, maybe using Wi-Max come in big, a phone with net connectivity will probably not cut it, as people will want proper web access.   A mini-laptop with web connection, large screen & keyboard could be great.

B_Lizzard

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« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2005, 09:45:40 am »
Now,

I'll just cut to the chase, here's what we want:

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/5917.html

http://www.mobile-review.com/exhibition/ce...mart-2005.shtml

Either something like that, or that, with a port of something (Familiar, OZ, PdaXrom) on it.

Discuss

nilch

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« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2005, 10:30:32 am »
Thats the catch - see some want a PDA with Phone capabilities - a smartphone/Handheld computer, others want a Handheld as a laptop replacement - and the rest want all in one - a phone (GSM/GPRS/EDGE everything else) + PDA (PIMing)  + Wifi + WiMax + Bluetooth + Laptop replacement + Audio/Video device + Camera + Video Cam + GPS Device + you name it.

Now discounting the third category (because they really are not sure what they want to do with it, they are only sure of feature sets), the rest of the two should be simple - a low end smartphone - with more emphasis on the phone part maybe (thats the way I cut it    ) and a high end Laptop repacement - what the 6000L wanted to be but couldn't reach it fully.

I think if Sharp keeps bettering their curent line of Zaurus, they can make the 2nd category happen (and with more collaboration on the software side though), while I am counting on TT (Troltech) to partner with solid phone companies to bring the 1st category to light. Though other than Sharp their are also companies like Nexio who are also trying to miniaturise a lpatop dream come true.

In between if some OEM and community members can come together and make such a device of the either two - then all the more better.

I leave out the third category - since at this juncture, it seems like a pipe dream, - not to say it can never happen - but its time is not right now as yet. We cant just jump from a PDA to an all-in-one (and lets not cite a Treo etc as such an all-in-one device - they certainly dont fulfill the laptop replacement factor at all) in one step - it has to be a gradual evolution.

Plus personally speaking - I dont see too many people jumping at the opportunity of holding their micro-laptops to their ears to make a call - bluetooth ear modules or not.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 10:41:28 am by nilch »
New no more-C1000 / 5000D (sold my 6000 and 750) | Cacko ROM 1.23 on C1000 | 256 MB CF | 2GB PNY SD card | Socket Networker WiFi CF Card | USB Host cable from StreamlineCPUS | Mini Microphone (for voice recording) |

adf

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« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2005, 12:16:11 pm »
just thought I'd mention... for the high end pda/micro laptop the tiqit seems to be on the road to being available. bulkier than a 6k but x86 based w/ a real hd and video out. bears watching..along with the way too expensive oqo and flipstart.

It would be very cool if someone started putting out a range of completely open hardware handhelds.

I think maybe I have said this before  but i'll say it again anyway:
make 'em expandable (upgradeable if possible--though hard to see how an upgradeable embedded cuold be kept small and strong)
given the variety of applications and adapters for them, lots of slots plugs and busses seem to me the way to do things. It will keep cosst down while maximizing versatility.  put the $$$ in the important non-negotiatble stuff... like the display, i/o, input, cpu and ram--- and battery.
 If i have a bunch o expansion and need bt, I can add it easily, you know?  And it is much easier to buy a $5-600 device and expand later than it is to buy a $9-1200  or more all-in-one. besides--my 6000l has taught me the value of external antennas
**3100 Zubuntu Jaunty,(working on Cacko dualboot), 16G A-Data internal CF, 4G SD, Ambicom WL-1100C Cf, linksys usb ethernet,  BelkinF8T020 BT card, Belkin F8U1500-E Ir kbd, mini targus usb mouse, rechargeble AC/DC powered USB hub, psp cables and battery extenders.

**6000l  Tetsuized Sharprom, installed on internal flash only 1G sd, 2G cf

tg

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« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2005, 03:04:36 pm »
Quote
Thats the catch - see some want a PDA with Phone capabilities - a smartphone/Handheld computer, others want a Handheld as a laptop replacement - and the rest want all in one - a phone (GSM/GPRS/EDGE everything else) + PDA (PIMing)  + Wifi + WiMax + Bluetooth + Laptop replacement + Audio/Video device + Camera + Video Cam + GPS Device + you name it.

I leave out the third category - since at this juncture, it seems like a pipe dream, - not to say it can never happen - but its time is not right now as yet. We cant just jump from a PDA to an all-in-one (and lets not cite a Treo etc as such an all-in-one device - they certainly dont fulfill the laptop replacement factor at all) in one step - it has to be a gradual evolution.

[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

The third category is not really a pipe dream any more. Take this for example:

[a href=\"http://www.dialogue.com.tw/english/products/flybook.htm]http://www.dialogue.com.tw/english/products/flybook.htm[/url]

Hardware wise the only things missing that you listed are camera, video & gps (although I don't remember many people acutally asking for those).
Personally I would like GPS but if not there not the end of the world. Whats missing and needs to be put on one of these is good Linux distribution. People who have this also report some minor issues like device gets warm, fan kicks in etc. But this is a first generation - fix those few issues and put Linux on this and all problems are solved.
Of course these are currently very expensive but the prices will come down in a year or two.

nilch

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« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2005, 03:56:14 pm »
Nice find that....

it seems a good laptop replacement though - but not a phone. It has GPRS inbuilt of course but what about GSM ?
And seriously you wouldn't want to use THAT as a phone do you ?

We are talking of PDA (handhelds) and Phones and lots more in one device here...the third category.

The way I see it...
The third category is not feasible (or possible I should say)  is NOT because the technology is not there - but because of design and size factors - a phone should be sufficient small (we have been pampered with smaller and smaller phones), while a Laptop replacement device will have at least some mass and size beacuse of the screen itself, if not anything else, so striking the right balance between them is the crucial factor that makes or breaks the smartphone devices - let alone balancing that with a laptop style device with all those additional features than a smartphone already has and then make people accept that device as their phone too.

Right now, it is more of a design (and marketing) issue than just plain technology.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 04:01:12 pm by nilch »
New no more-C1000 / 5000D (sold my 6000 and 750) | Cacko ROM 1.23 on C1000 | 256 MB CF | 2GB PNY SD card | Socket Networker WiFi CF Card | USB Host cable from StreamlineCPUS | Mini Microphone (for voice recording) |

tg

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« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2005, 04:18:41 pm »
Quote
Nice find that....

it seems a good laptop replacement though - but not a phone. It has GPRS inbuilt of course but what about GSM ?
And seriously you wouldn't want to use THAT as a phone do you ?

We are talking of PDA (handhelds) and Phones and lots more in one device here...the third category.

The way I see it...
The third category is not feasible (or possible I should say)  is NOT because the technology is not there - but because of design and size factors - a phone should be sufficient small (we have been pampered with smaller and smaller phones), while a Laptop replacement device will have at least some mass and size beacuse of the screen itself, if not anything else, so striking the right balance between them is the crucial factor that makes or breaks the smartphone devices - let alone balancing that with a laptop style device with all those additional features than a smartphone already has and then make people accept that device as their phone too.

Right now, it is more of a design (and marketing) issue than just plain technology.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Sure - most people would not phone that looks like this (although I personally would still prefer this to carrying 2 devices, I agree most people would not). But to me what is particularly attractive here is fast processor, good amount of memory and hard disk, and gprs. And people have already installed linux on this but there are some unresolved issues (touchscreen driver not quite working etc). Once all this is ironed out (generation 2 or 3 of this device?) it will be very nice.