Opie And Qtopia - A New Hope ?

[koen]

all the talk about opie vs. qtopia is basically about effort and effect... are there enough skilled people working on this stuff to build and maintain 2 qt based guis.--and are 2 flavors of qt gui good or necessary. I think that is the question, yes?
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Where one GUI is being developed by a company who pays people to work on it. Given the fact TT was so 'open' and 'involved' people had to fork it, I put my money on Opie. Personally I don't like the look and feel of all the QT enviroments, so I'll shut up now in this topic

[lpotter]

all the talk about opie vs. qtopia is basically about effort and effect... are there enough skilled people working on this stuff to build and maintain 2 qt based guis.--and are 2 flavors of qt gui good or necessary. I think that is the question, yes?
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Where one GUI is being developed by a company who pays people to work on it. Given the fact TT was so 'open' and 'involved' people had to fork it, I put my money on Opie. Personally I don't like the look and feel of all the QT enviroments, so I'll shut up now in this topic
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errmmm.. the only way Opie "forked" Qtopia is by Trolltech actually giving a ratsass about things, and releasing Qtopia under the GPL. I don't know what version of GPL you are thinking of thats not open.

[mars]

I'll give you a few thoughts from a user's perspective. I have ambitions of learning python and qt and doing a few things, but I am a looong way off.

BTW, if this were the desktop linux world, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

As a user, what do I care about:

Applications - I need to do what I need/want to do. On the desktop side, it doesn't matter what distro or window manager I choose, in general I have access to the same applications. And if I choose carefully, I can use the same applications on linux and windows.

In general, as a user in the desktop world, gnome versus kde versus something else; rpm versus deb; apt versus yum versus something else is moot. In general, I can do the same things or get the same functions lots of different ways . . . again it's taste.

So, on the zaurus, if I have all the applications (or reasonable alternatives) that I need and work on all the distros, then it comes down to a matter of taste. I don't think we are there yet. Although, among the applications I use are KOPI, KAPI, Portabase, Opie Reader, and Bedic -- all of which are available on OZ/Opie, PdaXrom, and Cacko.

I still like some Sharp ROM based apps that seem harder to get usable on Opie, or require closed libraries. Similarly, I quite like some Opie apps (e.g., Dagger) that don't seem available on Sharp ROMS.

The System Doesn't Get in My Way - Different people are more comfortable using different systems, so again there is an element of personal taste.

As a user, the keyboard repeat rate with the OZ 2.6 kernel got a bit frustrating. And as a user, I don't know how to fix it to suit my tastes. Typing faster as the kernel notes stated didn't make the annoyance go away.

The System Works with My Stuff - This is actually my key criteria in selecting a desktop distro. Does it recognize my hardware and peripherals or is it relatively easy to set up?

I have an ir keyboard. To be the most productive with my CL860, I would like to be able to use an external keyboard. PdaXrom (which I like) doesn't seem to support this. On Oz 3.5.3/Opie I couldn't figure out how to get it to work (IRK depends on lirc which didn't seem to be there for the 860 -- maybe I'm wrong).

It Should Be Fun to Use - For me this takes a backseat to being productive at the moment, but it is an important criteria.

Conclusions -- I personally think that OZ is the future in that it is device, vendor, and x-server/framebuffer agnostic. It will also support more devices.

Rather than Qtopia updates -- maybe we need to focus on QT/E updates.

PdaXrom also has a special place in my heart. If I could get the PdaXrom experience on top of an OZ base that would be cool.

But the "ROM" I find myself using the most is Cacko -- even though my view is it isn't the way forward. The reason I use it is because it just works ™. It has broad compatibility with existing apps -- many of which don't seem to like OZ/Opie. And for what I do, I tend to be the most productive in it. For X-based apps, I can use Debian/X-Qt.

Commercial and closed source programs without good free alternatives may continue to exist -- but if somebody can get them to compile for OZ/Opie too, than we can move closer to the best of both worlds.

[richie]

Hi

I think Opie and Qtopia is great, but would things be better if development was focused on one of them? Supposingly PDA's are dead, smartphones are the way. Yet there appears likely to be limited, if any developer access, SDK's etc, for developing apps on Qtopia Phones, so difficult to see how the future will pan out. I understand Trolltech's position with phone companies and security, but I wonder if Trolltech regreted GPLing Qtopia (Opie forking) in the early days and this is another reason why Qtopia Phone is closed at this time. I suspect Trolltech would prefer developers focused on apps for Qtopia rather than a competing gui.

At the end of the day without Trolltech none of this would exist and understandably Trolltech need to run a business and I think prefer to keep some control of Qtopia. If for example Opie succeed in to phones due to a fork from a GPL Qtopia Phone it could hurt Trolltech. But for me, I personally think it is more important to have a Linux based device with access for developing and running third party apps, whether the gui base is Opie or Qtopia doesn't matter so much.

Richie

[lpotter]

Hi

I think Opie and Qtopia is great, but would things be better if development was focused on one of them? Supposingly PDA's are dead, smartphones are the way. Yet there appears likely to be limited, if any developer access, SDK's etc, for developing apps on Qtopia Phones, so difficult to see how the future will pan out. I understand Trolltech's position with phone companies and security, but I wonder if Trolltech regreted GPLing Qtopia (Opie forking) in the early days and this is another reason why Qtopia Phone is closed at this time. I suspect Trolltech would prefer developers focused on apps for Qtopia rather than a competing gui.

At the end of the day without Trolltech none of this would exist and understandably Trolltech need to run a business and I think prefer to keep some control of Qtopia. If for example Opie succeed in to phones due to a fork from a GPL Qtopia Phone it could hurt Trolltech. But for me, I personally think it is more important to have a Linux based device with access for developing and running third party apps, whether the gui base is Opie or Qtopia doesn't matter so much.

Richie
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Trolltech does not regret GPL'ing Qtopia. If we did, then we wouldn't still be releasing new versions under the GPL. Opie has not hurt Qtopia sales at all. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't be allowed to work on Opie. Most companies want to know absolutely that they can get help when they need it.

[adf]

It does seem that opie has benefitted Qtopia. and of course exists because of qtopia.  more interoperability might be something of a goal?  maybe qtopia 2.1 soft float a la guylhem w/ oz  and maube we could get a current opie built w/ sharprom compatablilty ..mayb e using the build system lpotter uses for Qtopia?  migh make for better cross pollination.

( waiting to see who explains why it shouldn't/couldn't be done LMAO)

[pgas]

Compatibility? compatibility with what? abiword does not run inside qtopia. if we want maximum compatibility (ie opera running) let's just use the stock sharp software what's so wrong with it anyway? I think most Z users are using it and are pretty happy with it.

You want the biggest number of application? debian with X provides that.

Qtopia 2.1 is the way? I don't want qtopia, I don't want synchronization.
There is an open source browser running on the Z: firefox and an effort to develop an open source lightweight browser is allready on the way: minimo. Surely gpe is the way. Why waist time trying to port another engine?

Opie should die.

What will be the benefits? All the great opie developers would suddenly go and write applications for qtopia? submit patches for qtopia? They could have choose to do this in the first place, I don't think that they will change their mind now that they have put so much efforts in their baby.  

New Z owners will stop to be fooled into this opie business and start to make qtopia applications? I think that people starting development for opie know pretty well what they are doing as developing for qtopia is the most evident choice.

There is no chance that opie will die as long as some people find the urge to do it or something in this project that they don't find elsewhere.

I don't think there is a ultimate solution, I don't think there is a way to focus developers giving their free time on one great vision.

(damned I've been waisting my time again writing a 2 cents rant)

[koen]

Compatibility? compatibility with what? abiword does not run inside qtopia. if we want maximum compatibility (ie opera running) let's just use the stock sharp software what's so wrong with it anyway? I think most Z users are using it and are pretty happy with it.

You want the biggest number of application? debian with X provides that.

Qtopia 2.1 is the way? I don't want qtopia, I don't want synchronization.
There is an open source browser running on the Z: firefox and an effort to develop an open source lightweight browser is allready on the way: minimo. Surely gpe is the way. Why waist time trying to port another engine?

Opie should die.
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While I do think X is the way for most pda's (I've run X on my 486 which was far less powerfull), I don't think Opie should die. Opie and qtopia provide great pda functionality, which is their first and formost goal. I like GPE more because it doesn't let this pda paradigma get in my way, but it's less suited for the pure PIM people. Because of this slightly different directions both Opie and GPE can coexist happily. Opie/X11 looks very promising, and I would be surprised if TT isn't testing qtopia on X.

[richie]

Hi Lorn

Trolltech does not regret GPL'ing Qtopia. If we did, then we wouldn't still be releasing new versions under the GPL.
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Perhaps regreted was the wrong word, I was meaning that the early version of Qtopia PDA, led to a fork. And suggesting Trolltech may want to control Qtopia phone edition by keeping it closed source, for the time being whilst it is maturing, to prevent that happening again. I'm not criticising Trolltech, I think you and they do a good job and like I said before without Trolltech none of this would likely be possible.

Opie has not hurt Qtopia sales at all. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't be allowed to work on Opie. Most companies want to know absolutely that they can get help when they need it.
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I was suggesting Opie could hurt Trolltech if it had a phone edition, not that it has with its current PDA releases. As has been mentioned before PDA’s are dead, the future is smartphones. Opie is for PDA’s. Therefore a PDA version has less impact on the future. If the future is smartphones, then the only option is Qtopia Phone.

If we agree the future is phones, I think what is more important than Opie or Qtopia gui's is what the user can do with Qtopia Phone. What the telcos will allow to run on them and what developers can do and this is speculation until the the phones appear. The hope is that a Qtopia Phone can be as fun to use as the Zaurus has been as PDA.

Cheers
Rich

[adf]

pgas. debian stuff (everything k for example) uses qt libs. Not the same as Qtopia, of course, but not straight x either--and straight x doesn't necessarlity mean x/gtk, does it??. are you bringing back the great QT/GTK  schism? (forking heretics   )

If this were about what is the best approach to a zui... well I think pdaXrom got it right (x w/ qt).
the discussion was opie/qtopia...    does thant necessarily mean gcc and kernel version limits? oz compat vs. sharp compat?  surely the guis could be compiled to run either way.  opie used to be compiled to run sharp compat...   taking the kernel/gcc version debate away would help clarify quite a lot (if it is even possible anymore)

[pgas]

@koen, my point was not that opie should die but in response to that

@adf: I don't understand what you mean. debian does not requires qt...nor gtk if you don't want. Just use non-qt or non-gtk   applications. pdaxrom is not really based qt, the wm used openbox uses gtk IIRC...

[koen]

@koen, my point was not that opie should die but in response to that

@adf: I don't understand what you mean. debian does not requires qt...nor gtk if you don't want. Just use non-qt or non-gtk   applications. pdaxrom is not really based qt, the wm used openbox uses gtk IIRC...
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matchbox uses plain xlib, although it will be gtk based when gtk+ 2.8 hits the streets.

[lpotter]

Compatibility? compatibility with what? abiword does not run inside qtopia. if we want maximum compatibility (ie opera running) let's just use the stock sharp software what's so wrong with it anyway? I think most Z users are using it and are pretty happy with it.

Abiword sure can. So can kde, or even gnome, if you really wanted. Obviously you aren't into linux pda's enough to know about X/qt (should really be named X/Qtopia), which is an x server running in a Qtopia application.
http://xqt.sourceforge.jp/download.html

You want the biggest number of application? debian with X provides that.

some people tend forget its a _pda_

Qtopia 2.1 is the way? I don't want qtopia, I don't want synchronization.

Good for you. Most users do.

There is an open source browser running on the Z: firefox and an effort to develop an open source lightweight browser is allready on the way: minimo. Surely gpe is the way. Why waist time trying to port another engine?

Because "minimo" is still a memory hog.
There is also konqueror, if you happen to be stuck on using only open source.

Opie should die.

heh.

What will be the benefits? All the great opie developers would suddenly go and write applications for qtopia? submit patches for qtopia? They could have choose to do this in the first place, I don't think that they will change their mind now that they have put so much efforts in their baby. 

some of these Opie developers also work for Trolltech.

New Z owners will stop to be fooled into this opie business and start to make qtopia applications? I think that people starting development for opie know pretty well what they are doing as developing for qtopia is the most evident choice.

There is no chance that opie will die as long as some people find the urge to do it or something in this project that they don't find elsewhere.

I don't think there is a ultimate solution, I don't think there is a way to focus developers giving their free time on one great vision.

(damned I've been waisting my time again writing a 2 cents rant)
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[adf]

in fact debian does not require a gui. not even curses. Same with the Z. But that is hardly a meaningful objection to an end user (of the pda/desktop variety). can you imagine the popularity of a no gui os?


as to  "debian with x provides the biggest number of apps"  a lot of those apps use Qt.  

my point was that Qt of some kind seems to be here to stay..and that it is extensively used-- and that it seems to be a GOOD THING (and is gpl'd)

true, you can use debian or pdaxrom without any qt stuff.  I bet most people (end and desktop users, NOT running servers) don't.

Part of what makes pdaX so nice is the qt stuff, same w/ kde. sure, I sometimes use xfce4, atm I'm on gnome. But I wouldn't really be inclined to get rid of Qt stuff, or in any sense limit my use to xlib or x/gtk. there is no point.  I realize you can have macthbox w/out any QT...and that there is no Qt going on in gpe.  I've used gpe. I even liked what of it that worked on my Z. I would have liked to have qt apps too, if I could.. just as i like having xqt  if I am running Qtopia.  UI is about ease and 'richness" of the interface.... not so much about ideology.  I bet a "puritan hedghog mouse" with needles sticking out wouldn't sell much.  Why strip down, limit, and detract from uis on an ideological basis?  ( I argue within my tolerance here, btw--assuming all is gpl).

what were we talking about again?

[pgas]

hmm. my  point was that there are different people wanting different things and doing different things and that it won't change and that there is no point to seek a common ground for everybody.....

It seems I didn't make that clear enough....I tried to show what I feel is wrong with guhilem's rom (ie that the sharp distribution is not that bad, that compatibility with sharp roms doesn't necesseraly means the biggest number of  running applications, that opie can't die....)

I apologize if some people felt bad  because of my post.

lpotter: I did start my post writing that most people uses sharp rom hence qtopia , I know about x/qt I tried it more than a year ago (>400posts since dec-2003),  I have nothing against qtopia...I have even  compiled the yopy/qtopia for pdaxrom...and sometimes when I use it I do forget that my z is a pda