New Low-end "tux Pda"

[adf]

that apparently has to do with asia being wirelessly incoherent, so to speak.
I've been contending for some time, that if there is such a standards issue in asia, then they (sharp) should release with more expansion options to compensate the lack of built-in stuff.

[kahm]

So that's why they are releasing new devices without bluetooth and wifi in 2005.

</rant>
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This has been rehashed quite a bit here. Until relatively recently, Wi-Fi has been pretty rare in Japan, and apparently BT isn't all that popular either. The reason that the Z's have both SD and CF slots is because the Japanese market has cheap and common cellular CF cards. It's never made sense to include Wi-Fi in a Japanese only unit, because a Japanese buyer was more likely to ignore it and pop in a CF cellular card anyway. (I was there last October, and you literally saw display stands for AirH cards *everywhere*! I saw one store that only sold appliances - and they still had an AirH display out front!)

As much as we'd like to blame the current lack of Wi-fi or BT on Sharp's cluelessness, we can't. They're just playing to the market that they designed the things for in the first place. Notice that the only "modern" (usb host, VGA screen) Z released in the US did include Wi-fi as a standard option.

Now, though, Wi-fi usage is on the rise and Buffalo has stopped making their CF Wi-fi cards (and they had a big part of the market there.) We're now more likely to see Sharp build Wi-fi into their next model.

[handheld-linux]

Dear all,

now as the discussion has calmed down, let me try to draw a first summary.

Regarding the original question about Bluetooth or WiFi, there is a clear winner: WiFi (24:4).

That was much to my surprise - since I had expected that Bluetooth comes out better in a low-end device because it would offer more options to connect to external devices (GPS mouse for navigation, keyboard to better use PIM applications, mobile phone to sync with). But apparently, WiFi (i.e. full IP/Internet access) is more important (in a Linux PDA).

And funny enough, as we have run this discussion, I got the indication from the manufacturer, that they now even consider integrating both - so the result turns out to be of some academic importance.

The second discussion level was generally about the demand for a lower priced device. Here the discussion has puzzled me a lot, since on one hand I (think) I always read that the Sharp Zauruses are more expensive than anything else to reach broader use, but if I propose a less expensive device, it does not have enough functionality or is not extensible enough.

So, the only solution would be that we all use, promote and buy more Sharps so that they come into economies of scale and the price can go down to reach a level where Dell and others already are. So it is about strengthening and extending this community. What about a "proud Zaurus user" button on each of your home pages or a "Zaurus" sticker on your car?

Or is there really no demand for a lower priced Linux-PIM-only-PDA (with reduced functionality of course)?

Many thanks for discussing these topics,
Nikolaus

[pgas]

You should take into account that most members here allready own a Zaurus.

Hence the lack of interest for something equivalent or less powerfull than what we allready have.

You'll perhaps get different answers if you try  to do the same kind of poll elsewhere.

[handheld-linux]

You should take into account that most members here allready own a Zaurus.

That is a valid argument. On the other hand, especially Zaurus owners should probably know best what they need (would have needed).

But with the announcement of the Nokia 770 for approx. 400 EUR this project seems no longer to be competitve.

Nikolaus

[B_Lizzard]

Then, the best choice would be to focus on one project, not two or three.
You need to make choices between High-end, and low price.You can't have both.Don't let competing products put you down.To me, It's quite expensive.Let's just see what it can do for 400 Euros.

Has anyone considered making a PDA based on the x86 architecture?
Making something like that would probably mean better compatabillity, speedier operation, and probably more benefits.On the downside, you've got a more power-hungry CPU and probably hotter operation.

Anyways, check this out:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2872282951.html

Is it feasable?

Anyways, people are probably looking for an all-around good device, that can handle all kinds of stuff.One example is the Zaurus.Although it is typically of lower spec comparing with the PPC bunch (Except for the Keyboard and the HDD), It's very versatile.And that is cause it runs Linux (Or BSD or ....).I guess that, if you made a all-around device, good screen,good battery life,capable of running (almost) everything you feed it for the next 5 years, with a good storage space, reasonable expansion and a nice form factor, people would consider buying it.It doesn't have to be the most powerfull thing on earth, it has to be different.

Carefull choices have to be made.In my viewpoint, the device must not be something filled to the brim with gimmicks you won't use.It has to be fit to stand to the test of time.

Kudos.

[adf]

though what stands the test of time best is probably expansion slots.

seriously though, This isn't a zaurus. The members of this group tend to be techy and finicky.  many of us don't use our pdas as pdas at all.  Other than the fact that it is a linux device this is the wrong crowd to get good projected sales info on a dedicated pda from.


On the other hand--if we are your proposed market read the posts on new devices (like the nokia 770) see what (and what aspect of it) gets ooos and aaahs and what gets put down. that will give you a clearer picture of what this membership actually looks for.

[handheld-linux]

Other than the fact that it is a linux device this is the wrong crowd to get good projected sales info on a dedicated pda from.

Well, the forum has been renamed to OESF to be no longer restricted to Zaurus users only.

On the other hand--if we are your proposed market read the posts on new devices (like the nokia 770) see what (and what aspect of it) gets ooos and aaahs and what gets put down. that will give you a clearer picture of what this membership actually looks for.

That is already clear:
++ display (much better than my proposal)
++ Blueooth & WiFi builtin (same as my proposal)
-- no keypad (same as my proposal)
-- no CF (same as my proposal)
-- no Harddrive (same as my proposal)
++ very good price (same as my proposal)

And the last one is not to beat if Nokia is on the frontplate :-)

Nikolaus

[adf]

give it a  clamshell hinged keyboard  with cf slots at either end and (assuming the processor is good) i'd very likely dish out more than nokia is asking--even without their logo  --especially if the specs were open...

[jamesm]

About the information regarding this project on the handheld linux website (I assume this is the same PDA you're reffering to here):

We have been offered to sell a "privately labeled" Linux PDA (Project X) comparable to a Zaurus SL5500G in price and performance (using Qt, but has no keyboard).

What exactly is the advantage in having a PDA that is "comparable" to the 5500 for €300-400 without a keyboard?

I can't really see where the market for this device is going to be. People who buy a Linux PDA because they want to use Linux on a hand-held will most probably want a keyboard, on the other hand, people who buy a Linux PDA to use it as a PDA are normally disappointed. Most Linux based PDAs really aren't all that capable because of their relatively immature PIM/Office apps.

[tg]

I have stated this before but feel strongly enought to repeat again - another low end PDA (linux or not) is not needed at all and will be a complete failure. If you can release something that looks like c1000 in terms of form and add all highest end features currently available (cpu,ram,larger screen,hd,built in GPS/GPRS/Wireless/Bluetooth) then everyone at least on these boards (and that's not a small feat in itself) will upgrade sooner or later - someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I have still not seen anyone else releasing or even announcing anything similar - a lot of other manufacturers are releasing interesting stuff but always either keyboard and/or linux are missing - if you are able to include all this and focus on highest end components in my opinion you will have huge success (and you will be surprised how much people will be willing to spend for this - they may not think so now but once the device is out and few reviews hit the net watch everyone reach for their credit cards).
Also, it is critical that some type of open rom is available early so we can for once get started properly out of the gate and not end up having to reverse engineer semi-functional proprietary drivers.

[jamesm]

Also, it is critical that some type of open rom is available early so we can for once get started properly out of the gate and not end up having to reverse engineer semi-functional proprietary drivers.
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Yikes that is asking a lot! Although if anyone were in a position to do something like that it would be a company like handheld-linux.com. Surely they are well placed among forums like these and developer communities (OE etc) to provide the new hardware early and have a mature version of one of these ROMs installed from the start.

There were rumblings of this earlier in the year from a company who took a Psion machine and worked with the Emdebian team. There is information on this forum about this topic, although I don't know the progress as I haven't kept up with the threads.

[handheld-linux]

About the information regarding this project on the handheld linux website (I assume this is the same PDA you're reffering to here):

What exactly is the advantage in having a PDA that is "comparable" to the 5500 for €300-400 without a keyboard?

Yes, although the info on that page is a little outdated. It is more a "Project Y" :-)

The advantages I have seen (before the Nokia 770 announcement):
* availability of unused devices incl. warranty etc. (the last recommended price of Sharp for the SL-5500G was 399,- EUR)
* preinstalled OpenZaurus or similar
* lower price than a C1000 to reach a broader audience (not necessarily restricted to Zaurus users) for Linux application software developers
* no keyboard: to make it a small and lightweight entry level device; but use Bluetooth to allow to connect an external keypad

Since most of these points also appy to the Nokia 770, we don't see us able to continue that project. So, we will work with both, Sharp and Nokia in the future.

Nikolaus

[jamesm]

Yes, although the info on that page is a little outdated. It is more a "Project Y" :-)

The advantages I have seen (before the Nokia 770 announcement):
* availability of unused devices incl. warranty etc. (the last recommended price of Sharp for the SL-5500G was 399,- EUR)
* preinstalled OpenZaurus or similar
* lower price than a C1000 to reach a broader audience (not necessarily restricted to Zaurus users) for Linux application software developers
* no keyboard: to make it a small and lightweight entry level device; but use Bluetooth to allow to connect an external keypad

Since most of these points also appy to the Nokia 770, we don't see us able to continue that project. So, we will work with both, Sharp and Nokia in the future.

Nikolaus
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I can see your point here about the advantages of such a system. But I can also see the problems you would face in making this a profitable venture. The niche in this market is not substantial enough really to support the proposed unit with competition from Nokia.

I applaud your company's enthusiasm in researching this product and in involving the Zaurus community during this phase. I think Sharp/Nokia etc could learn a lesson from you.

(They would probably learn not to release so many PDA's that consequently get dropped after a few months   )

[nilch]

(They would probably learn not to release so many PDA's that consequently get dropped after a few months   )
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Wo ho... be careful there ... there really arent that many Linux PDA's (consumer oriented) up there, so let them keep coming. At least for Linux to be viable on PDA's there has to be a minimum critical amount of PDA / Handheld releases and the obvious discontinuations of some models before people see it as a viable alternative.

Thats how any technology gains a foot in the market or just loses out for lack of critical movement.