Another Embedded Linux Device

[mars]

Slashdot had a discussion on the pepperpad on 04 Jul:

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=0...tid=163&tid=137

Someone claiming to be a developer said:

We went with MontaVista because, at the time, it was the best pre-compiled solution with RPM support that ran mostly out of the box. We're exploring other options and have used various cross-compilers to build binaries for the Pepper Pad. In theory, if another distribution will build, it will run.

We're not officially working on any other distributions at the moment but we're exploring our options in our (lack of) spare time.

And,

Quite simply, we've been too busy getting the device prepared for the consumer market to worry about advertising its hackability. At some point in the near future we'll be fully documenting the SDK and possibly an HDK but for now we're focusing on the consumer aspect.

Regarding crosstool support, we include libraries to run both apps compiled natively on the Pad, compiled using MontaVista's cross-compiler, and compiled using Kegel's crosstool [kegel.com]. There's a set of dev environment RPMs sitting on the Pad just waiting to be installed.

For our initial release it's up to the hacker to find the stuff and figure out how to use it (simple once you find it) but, in the future, it will be fully documented once we have some spare cycles to burn.

Also the following site is claimed to eventually have all the unsupported info on the pepper: http://www.pepperhacks.com/

- mars

[grifster]

Wow, this is almost exactly what I was thinking of as a Simpad 2 (see my post in new Linux handheld).  Except its too expensive.  This is the problem when a techie creates somthing; they have to add the bloody kitchen sink. Nokia went the other way and may get a successful intake because its half the price.

Why does it need a 20 gig hard drive! If I want a Archos AV-700; I'll buy one.  Better yet I'd just plug in a hard drive into the USB or add a 5gig PCMCIA(if it had one). Do we really need bluetooth, Wi-Fi and IrdA?  

If they had killed one of the connectivity options (IrdA) and added a CF slot and a Cardbus PCMCIA for expansion it'd be more flexible AND cheaper

I hope they make a Pepperpad-light and take out the 20 gig hard drive and IrDA add a CF slot and a PCMCIA slot and drop the price by $200 then they'd have something I'd probably buy.

I could run to $400- 500 for something that I could look at digital photographs surf the web and use VOIP with (and play with linux).  $800 is just way too expensive.

[adf]

From pepper:

">We do not have any custom chips, but we have written a lot of drivers I
>would not recommend changing the drivers.  We are running MontaVista's Linux
>distribution.
>
>You should feel free to run other Linux applications on the device, but as I
>said we will not provide support for those applications.  In a few weeks, we
>will post a cross compiler that will assist you in compiling software apps
>for our platform.
>
>Regards,
>Jon

they seem a hell of a lot friendlier than sharp, anyway
compare it to a 3100:
about the same $$
less portable
5x the storage
50% faster
4x (256m) the ram of the 3100
16m rom vs 128 m on the 3100
1.5x higher res screen @ over 2x the size..and tft.
270g accelerator vs, no accelerator
ir+bt+80211 vs. ir only
sd/mmc vs sd+cf
both have usb

If putting the thing in a breifcase is ok, the the pepperpad pretty seriously kicks the Z's butt in specs, dollar for dollar. If I were to buy either..it would be the pepperpad, I think
It is linux and they are releasing a crosscompiler..and they answer email. It is smaller lighter (and based on the pxa chips, I'm sure more efficient) than a laptop and would make a much better remote display/io device than a z due to the higher res.

I guess we wait and see how the software and development support turns out. They seem much more accessable than sharp, which is hopeful.

[ev1l]

Yup
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If you're not going to say anything, you might as well refrain from posting.

[ev1l]

they seem a hell of a lot friendlier than sharp, anyway
compare it to a 3100:
about the same $$
less portable
5x the storage
50% faster
4x (256m) the ram of the 3100
16m rom vs 128 m on the 3100
1.5x higher res screen @ over 2x the size..and tft.
270g accelerator vs, no accelerator
ir+bt+80211 vs. ir only
sd/mmc vs sd+cf
both have usb

Yeah, I noticed that specs were very nice for the price. I just hate:
 - the weight (I want to put that damn thing in my pocket, not my backpack)
 - the divided keyboard, soft keys, soft D-pad
 - the looks (ugly color combination)
 - exposed screen.

I really like some of the input extra's like the scrollwheel (if it's actually usable, unlike the sharp scrollwheel, which isn't a wheel to begin with), but for the price, I'd rather get an iBook and put Linux on that. No touchscreen, but better hardware all around, and the screen is protected when I put it to sleep.

[adf]

hmmm.  You can definitely get a  more powerful laptop for this price. BUT... won't the laptop weigh considerably more, and even w/ a 12' screen be noticably larger in every dimension?

Certainl,y the laptop, dollar for dollar, will be more powerful.. in the 500-800 mhz range (or 300-500 apple?), I suspect, with the same or less ram?  Basically you'd get much more floating point grunt, and a keyboard.and a bigger screen.  Even 12" ibook G4 (which I picked as being reasonably new, though probably more expensive,weighs 4.9 pounds, or the weight of 2.13 pepperpads:

12" iBook G4:
Height: 1.35 inches (3.42 cm)
Width: 11.2 inches (28.5 cm)
Depth: 9.1 inches (23.0 cm)
Weight: 4.9 pounds (2.2 kg).

Nearly same width, 50% deeper, @40% thiicker.--and slightly over 2X heavier.
the footprint is closer than I would hve guessed..but still substantially bigger.


 I was thinking more that the pepperpad, with a light case, was already at the very outside of "portable"--and that anything heavier was just not going in my bag (--and that I'd keep my Z regardless) and that the thing to go in the pocket would be a smartphone.

 I dunno.. I think the weight/size comparison still leaves the pepperpad as a good portable contender.

[mars]

I emailed a few questions to the pepperhacks.com person, this is the response for those interested in some more information.

Date: Jul 21, 2005 12:56 PM
> The pepperpad is intriquing. One question I have is about the video
> quality of the pepperpad.

320x240 videos play surprisingly well both in windowed mode and full
screen. A little chop every once in a while but we're making strides
into Marathon video acceleration on a daily basis. Some codecs write
direct to Marathon (accelerated) and some codecs rely on X for display.

> I would appreciate if you could post some comments on this. I am
> interested in knowing what quality of videos play externally to a
> TV and internally to the screen.

I'm fairly impressed with the quality of the video playing out to a
TV...more than adequate for LAN parties or presentations. Surfing the
Web while displaying to a TV is a little fuzzy like most TV out cards.

> Since the screen is 800x600, does the pepperpad change resolution
> when playing videos or does it scale the videos (at some hit to
> performance)?

Videos are scaled. As I said above, some codecs have Marathon
acceleration so those codecs don't take much of a performance hit
when scaling to full screen.

> And then what is the recommended format, resolution, and bitrate
> for displaying videos?

I don't have a full or official list but MPEG-1, DivX, and some
Quicktime movies at 320x240 play extremely well in the lab. I'm not
sure what our licensing is for DivX so we may not be shipping with
DivX support in the first release. Regarding bitrate I'm not
sure...I'd have to open up some of the videos that play well on the
Pad and see how much data they're pushing.

> Another topic, does the pepperpad use an XWindows display (or
> framebuffer)?. If xwindows, can any xwindows application be
> compiled to run on the pepperpad? (Assuming dependencies have been
> met).

We use the freedesktop.org distribution of X so any application that
will compile for ARM will run. We'll be releasing a crosstool and
support libraries for cross-compiling in the near future (it may show
up on www.pepperhacks.com before an official release appears on
www.pepper.com).

[adf]

ffmpeg would be the thing to look for, really-imho. is there a winffmpeg?

[ev1l]

I dunno.. I think the weight/size comparison still leaves the pepperpad as a good portable contender.
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Contender for what?  
I'd love a device like that, but at 2 and a half pounds it needs to be a laptop replacement.
Walt Mossberg's got a review that's pretty enlightening.
[a href=\"http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20050721.html]http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20050721.html[/url]

[rmako]

I was about ready to go with a Mini-ITX box as a car computer.  This might fit the bill even better.  Have to see how open it is.

Mako

[technojunkie]

Walt Mossberg's got a review that's pretty enlightening.
http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20050721.html
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Well as I am sure you can attest no embedded linux device yet has had a decent PIM. I kinda laughed at the statement that it can't play wmv or quicktime.

I wasn't aware those two formats could be played on ANYTHING but their native player.

[adf]

contender for packable mobile device?  I only really use web stuff...and maybe gimp when travelling.  If I jave more to do it can be done through the net on a server. still, ebay has some nice subnotebooks that are close in weight and price

[Tom61]

Walt Mossberg's got a review that's pretty enlightening.
http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20050721.html
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Well as I am sure you can attest no embedded linux device yet has had a decent PIM. I kinda laughed at the statement that it can't play wmv or quicktime.

I wasn't aware those two formats could be played on ANYTHING but their native player.


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What are talking about? Mplayer loves .mov/.qt, except the very latest version, but give the mplayer team time. .WMV is YMMV under Mplayer, and embedded players as well(my DVD/DVP player handles some but not all .WMV files).

[ev1l]

Well as I am sure you can attest no embedded linux device yet has had a decent PIM. I kinda laughed at the statement that it can't play wmv or quicktime.

VLC will play anything, and it runs on pretty much anything too. Bit power-hungry, though. But it's doable, no doubt.
Could you edit the thread title with the name of the device, please?

[adf]

It is nice that mossberg actually tested a pepperpad.  It is not so nice that he didn't mention that the pepperpeople are relasing an sdk and adding to the package list, or that, being linux, the applications can be changed, added, or removed without additional cost.  His "function/application X" is planned caveats really don't tell the story in that regard.