New Zaurus Software Effort

[lardman]

Second, I've had some comments says that the OPIE/GPE tools are simple. That's untrue. Try understanding the workings of all those python scripts. You actually CAN do that with the ptxdist stuff, the scripts I saw made sense, and while their documentation level is very, very low, their support level is very very right (maybe as high as the Opie/GPE folks all put together! they have mailing lists, irc channels, and lots of willingness to help.

So, which you might (after a lot of work) be able to understand WHAT the python scrupts are doing, I rather doubt you will get to the level of fixing the python scripts themselves. They are FAR more complicated than the Pengutronix stuff is.

Do they need fixing? Is this a requirement for developing using them? To draw an admittedly absurd parallel, should I have to understand how the Linux virtual memory paging system is implemented to be able to write a "Hello World!" binary in C?

Those of you who suggested staying with either pdaXrom or Cacko: are you aware that pdaXrom IS Cacko? They are one and the same, Cacko was the earlier name, is all.

No. Cacko is based on Sharp's Qtopia, pdaXrom is an x11 based system, this makes them different from a number of points of view (including the build system afaik).

Past that, Sashz controls all of the code with an iron hand, and you CAN'T COMMIT to it, he won't open his archive. If it were open, I would have conributed to it a long time back, when I first tried to teach Sashz the workings of cvs and ssh. If he won't allow it, all I could do is sit aroudn with you folks, but I want to contribute, not just talk about contributing.

You can contribute to OpenEmbedded, we're always looking for more contributors, and not just for code - bug fixing, documentation writing (also for OpenZaurus), there's lots of opportunity for everyone to get involved.

Cheers,


Si

[w14]

Chuckr,

Cacko and pdaxrom are not one and the same. As I recall, back in the pre c7x0 days, Maslovsky and Sashz worked together to produce enhancements to the Sharp ROMs available then. In those days, rather than the Sashz/OE wars, we had the Sashz/tkcROM wars, with accusations from Sashz that Proto has ripped off Cacko for tkcROM.

Some time after that, Sashz split off on his own to produce pdaXrom. Maslovsky continued work on Cacko and as far as I know still does, although things hasve been quiet recently.

So although there are historical ties, Cacko and pdaxrom are not the same.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you post suggests that you won't go ahead with this unless you get some people to join you in your efforts. Is that the case? I'd like to encourage you to just get on with it. I think people are tired of the "this system is better than that" bickering that we've had here for a long time. Show us what can be done that makes this system better, and people will follow you.

I'd like to suggest you speak the the OE guys in more depth, though. I think they made the choices they have for good reasons. I suggest it is worthwhile taking some more time to understand their reasons, so that even if you decide in the end that OE is not the way forward for you, you are at least prepared for the issues that you may run up against down the road.

Mike.

[adf]

that pretty much leaves you all by yourself, there, chuck, since apparently neither the developers or the users meet your high standards. soo....go ahead, blow us away with a new system.  I'll apologize for my cynicism if it appears i na useble form.  in fact I'll even set up a build system and port some software.
In the meantime, OE makes progress, sashz is still around, and sharp and cacko are pretty useful.

[Hrw]

First, I think I better say, if you don't do any software yourself, then I don't believe you have any right to even comment upon this.  the phrase "Dutch Uncle" comes to mind here, so if you don't do software, I don't think you have a right to comment, in any way, upon the doing of those who do.  I'm not trying to insult you, but those are my feelings.

In other words: "Fsck off users - I only want skilled devels and I do not care at all about users".

Users are most important part of Zaurus world - if you do not get them then your work is useless. Zaurus world is split into few parts and if something new came then it has to describe users why it need to be choosen instead of one of already existing solutions.

Second, I've had some comments says that the OPIE/GPE tools are simple.  That's untrue.  Try understanding the workings of all those python scripts.  You actually CAN do that with the ptxdist stuff, the scripts I saw made sense, and while their documentation level is very, very low, their support level is very very right (maybe as high as the Opie/GPE folks all put together! they have mailing lists, irc channels, and lots of willingness to help.

As many know I'm one of core OpenEmbedded developers. I use it for over 2 years now and do not try to understand why some stuff is written in a way like they are written - it works and thats enough for me. If I want to get knowledge about some bbclasses then I ask other developers and get answer. I wrote many recipes during those 2 years and know that adding new stuff can take less then 5 minutes (plus buildtime) - and that some newbies are able to reach that too during their first week of using OE.

And OE is not "OPIE/GPE tools" but one of method to build those enviroments. Many people are building OPIE/GPE without even trying OE and it works for them.

So, which you might (after a lot of work) be able to understand WHAT the python scrupts are doing, I rather doubt you will get to the level of fixing the python scripts themselves.  They are FAR more complicated than the Pengutronix stuff is.

Getting started with PTXdist need you to know make syntax (which has some caveats). To add something into OE you need to write "recipe" for it. For many targets simplest version contain two lines. For example any application which use autotools (common "./configure;make;make install" thing) is:

Code: [Select]

SRC_URI = "ftp://ftp.example.com/helloworld.tar.gz"
inherit autotools

I suspect those who suggested staying wiht Cacko must have been one of the folks who doesn't themselves write software.  Like I said, those are Dutch Uncles, they don't qualify to comment on a development project if they aren't developers.[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Like I said - you ignore users.


Anyway I wish you good luck on getting another distro for Zaurus working. I will look into your repository to check how some things get done and import some of them into OE and can offer help (on IRC) on some stuff (but it depends on free time from my free time).

[omro]

A debian-based distro would be nice too of course although this wouldn't fit into the internal ram I think -- not so cool.

I was under the vague impression that pdaXrom was a hair's breadth away from being somewhat debian compatible if some of the innards were updated. If that happened and more debian packages worked on pdaXrom wouldn't that foster greater enthusiasm for it?

If someone were to fork pdaXrom or any other Z distribution. Making it compatible with a more mainstream system, so that it was a micro laptop, rather than a pda with a good screen and keyboard, would be the way to go.

However, I don't think pdaXrom needs to be forked. I just think it needs to be opened up, updated, cleaned up, debugged, given a direction and a clear roadmap for all to see where it's going, how it's going to get there and when.

[Xromer]

However, I don't think pdaXrom needs to be forked. I just think it needs to be opened up, updated, cleaned up, debugged, given a direction and a clear roadmap for all to see where it's going, how it's going to get there and when.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

That' s what i' m telling Sashz since time but didn' t have a valid answer.
I' m tired and there to leave PdaXrom.
Happy Luck to you everyone.
Hope that something change, as i would like that the very little i can do and later improvements, will be for Zauri comunity benefits.
BYEZ!
 

P.S. Sorry guys, i have only one Zauri and it will make me do Distro choices time by time.

[Mickeyl]

Second, I've had some comments says that the OPIE/GPE tools are simple.  That's untrue.  Try understanding the workings of all those python scripts.  You actually CAN do that with the ptxdist stuff, the scripts I saw made sense, and while their documentation level is very, very low, their support level is very very right (maybe as high as the Opie/GPE folks all put together! they have mailing lists, irc channels, and lots of willingness to help.

So, which you might (after a lot of work) be able to understand WHAT the python scrupts are doing, I rather doubt you will get to the level of fixing the python scripts themselves.  They are FAR more complicated than the Pengutronix stuff is.

I don't see the point here. You don't have to understand anything of either bitbake or the python backend of OpenEmbedded to be a productive developer and customize it for your liking. Even I don't understand everything of bitbake or the more advanced build classes -- that didn't stop me from being productive with OE

[lardman]

I was under the vague impression that pdaXrom was a hair's breadth away from being somewhat debian compatible if some of the innards were updated. If that happened and more debian packages worked on pdaXrom wouldn't that foster greater enthusiasm for it?

Afaik, debian don't use soft-float (yet) so neither pdaX nor OpenZaurus are compatible.

OpenZaurus used to be compatible (back in the days of OZ3.2) but in reality debian isn't optimised to work on these small screen, memory and storage constrained devices so the choice was made to move on and try to make things better.

I can't see that the lack of software is a real issue for either OZ or pdaX, or is it?


Si

[Craigms]

However, I don't think pdaXrom needs to be forked. I just think it needs to be opened up, updated, cleaned up, debugged, given a direction and a clear roadmap for all to see where it's going, how it's going to get there and when.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I agree with this statement.

[Snappy]

I was under the vague impression that pdaXrom was a hair's breadth away from being somewhat debian compatible if some of the innards were updated. If that happened and more debian packages worked on pdaXrom wouldn't that foster greater enthusiasm for it?

Afaik, debian don't use soft-float (yet) so neither pdaX nor OpenZaurus are compatible.

OpenZaurus used to be compatible (back in the days of OZ3.2) but in reality debian isn't optimised to work on these small screen, memory and storage constrained devices so the choice was made to move on and try to make things better.

I can't see that the lack of software is a real issue for either OZ or pdaX, or is it?


Si
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131846\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

hmmm ... how about NetBSD then? NetBSD seemed to be ported to all kinds of hardware. It supports X11 and its a full desktop OS. comments?

PS: I'm not trying to undermine Cacko, OZ or pdaXrom ... they are all great ... but on the topic of having a full desktop OS that can work off a device like a Zaurus, NetBSD comes to mind.

[chuckr]

Second, I've had some comments says that the OPIE/GPE tools are simple. That's untrue. Try understanding the workings of all those python scripts. You actually CAN do that with the ptxdist stuff, the scripts I saw made sense, and while their documentation level is very, very low, their support level is very very right (maybe as high as the Opie/GPE folks all put together! they have mailing lists, irc channels, and lots of willingness to help.

So, which you might (after a lot of work) be able to understand WHAT the python scrupts are doing, I rather doubt you will get to the level of fixing the python scripts themselves. They are FAR more complicated than the Pengutronix stuff is.

Do they need fixing? Is this a requirement for developing using them? To draw an admittedly absurd parallel, should I have to understand how the Linux virtual memory paging system is implemented to be able to write a "Hello World!" binary in C?

Those of you who suggested staying with either pdaXrom or Cacko: are you aware that pdaXrom IS Cacko? They are one and the same, Cacko was the earlier name, is all.

No. Cacko is based on Sharp's Qtopia, pdaXrom is an x11 based system, this makes them different from a number of points of view (including the build system afaik).

Past that, Sashz controls all of the code with an iron hand, and you CAN'T COMMIT to it, he won't open his archive. If it were open, I would have conributed to it a long time back, when I first tried to teach Sashz the workings of cvs and ssh. If he won't allow it, all I could do is sit aroudn with you folks, but I want to contribute, not just talk about contributing.

You can contribute to OpenEmbedded, we're always looking for more contributors, and not just for code - bug fixing, documentation writing (also for OpenZaurus), there's lots of opportunity for everyone to get involved.

Cheers,


Si
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131672\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I said that the Cacko development was closed, and you replied that the OpenEmbedded isn't closed, don't you see your own bias there?  I never said, and certainly never meant, thatn the OpenEmbedded was closed, my comments were ALL about Sashz and his closed shop, and how so many of you oesf folks appear not to mind being frozen out of all possible development.

Just, don't get me erong, you;'ll have the entier world thinking I said that about OpenEmbedded.  My complaint about  OpenEmbedded waas about the size of their tools, and the stability of them, but never about their openness.

[omro]

However, I don't think pdaXrom needs to be forked. I just think it needs to be opened up, updated, cleaned up, debugged, given a direction and a clear roadmap for all to see where it's going, how it's going to get there and when.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I agree with this statement.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131885\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

So what can be done to further this particular aim?

[desertrat]

So what can be done to further this particular aim?

Please bear in mind that I only started using a Zaurus since Oct 2005 and pdaXrom shortly after that and thus don't know much about the trials and tribulations of how pdaXrom came to be what it is today ...

pdaXrom is Sashz's baby and as such it is understandable that he would want to retain tight control over its direction and development. However what is puzzling is why he seemingly/allegedly fails to incorporate patches for bug fixes etc. Perhaps it is due to the contributions regime. Until recently Sashz has been relying upon the contributions for his day to day expenses. Maybe Sashz is worried that if there were more contributors (of development work not cash) then he doesn't deserve or would feel guilty in claiming all the (cash) contributions. And the other thing is recognition, more developers may mean that Sashz's hardwork and contributions gets diluted (in terms of recognition).

So if we can reassure Sashz that he gets to keep all the cash contributions, and gets suitable recognition for all the work he has put into pdaXrom so far then maybe he would reconsider opening up pdaXrom a bit more?

Just my tuppence.

-- cheers

[omro]

I'd like to re-examine the subtitle for this thread in a calm and non judgemental manner, ignoring a lot of the venom which seems to have infected this thread. We have to remember that english isn't everyone's first language and that people can read a piece of text and colour it however their brain wants to read it, without actually picking up on the poster's original intent. Please read this without emotion and just think logically. Thanks! :-)

The subtitle for this thread is:

"Re-examining what's done, could be done"

Without getting way too technical, because I'm not, what "could be done"? What would people like to see done?

Whatever happens to pdaXrom (or an alternative should someone wish to build it) this information is useful because it allows everyone to see what's wanted and possible.

My own opinion is this:

- I want a lean, fast and clean ROM for my Z.
- I would like suspend and resume to work as flawlessly as it does in the Sharp ROM.
- I would like battery life to be the same as in the Sharp ROM.
- I don't want lots of pre-bundled apps and tools I don't even know how to use or de-install.
- I like the ubuntu approach to linux, one decent app per category, but the ability to add whatever you want after installation would be a good approach.
- I think a number of images with different pre-installed apps might be an idea, a base (nothing pre-installed), basic user (word processor, spreadsheet, PIM, web browser, pdf viewer and mp3 player) and advanced (the developer centric tools and apps).
- I really want apps to open and fit the screen so that I'm not forever resizing something before I can even use it.
- I really want all the keys to work first time, correctly as expected. I actually like the sticky shift and function approach used in the Sharp ROM.
- Personally, I know I've said this repeatedly, I would like Open Office 2 to run on my Z. This is purely because my work uses it and it would be great not to have to take my laptop everywhere or to have to save files down into word/excel formats just to view them on my Z.

I've been using OZ/GPE for about a week and a bit now. I feel that this meets more of my needs than pdaXrom does in it's current form.

I'd enjoy hearing other people's thoughts.

[tg]

I'd like to re-examine the subtitle for this thread in a calm and non judgemental manner, ignoring a lot of the venom which seems to have infected this thread. We have to remember that english isn't everyone's first language and that people can read a piece of text and colour it however their brain wants to read it, without actually picking up on the poster's original intent. Please read this without emotion and just think logically. Thanks! :-)

The subtitle for this thread is:

"Re-examining what's done, could be done"

Without getting way too technical, because I'm not, what "could be done"? What would people like to see done?

Whatever happens to pdaXrom (or an alternative should someone wish to build it) this information is useful because it allows everyone to see what's wanted and possible.

My own opinion is this:

- I want a lean, fast and clean ROM for my Z.
- I would like suspend and resume to work as flawlessly as it does in the Sharp ROM.
- I would like battery life to be the same as in the Sharp ROM.
- I don't want lots of pre-bundled apps and tools I don't even know how to use or de-install.
- I like the ubuntu approach to linux, one decent app per category, but the ability to add whatever you want after installation would be a good approach.
- I think a number of images with different pre-installed apps might be an idea, a base (nothing pre-installed), basic user (word processor, spreadsheet, PIM, web browser, pdf viewer and mp3 player) and advanced (the developer centric tools and apps).
- I really want apps to open and fit the screen so that I'm not forever resizing something before I can even use it.
- I really want all the keys to work first time, correctly as expected. I actually like the sticky shift and function approach used in the Sharp ROM.
- Personally, I know I've said this repeatedly, I would like Open Office 2 to run on my Z. This is purely because my work uses it and it would be great not to have to take my laptop everywhere or to have to save files down into word/excel formats just to view them on my Z.

I've been using OZ/GPE for about a week and a bit now. I feel that this meets more of my needs than pdaXrom does in it's current form.

I'd enjoy hearing other people's thoughts.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=132003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

As end user I totally agree with everything you said. I have not tried pdaXrom or OZ until now because every time I read about new releases some or most of the above is not working out of the box and I'm too lazy to mess with keyboard, window config files etc (ok, I do not consider openoffice to work out of box to be a requirement but firefox or some other full featured browser is a must - without waiting several minutes to start up, swap, etc - if opera can do it in cacko it's obviously possible).