Author Topic: New Zaurus Software Effort  (Read 15593 times)

chuckr

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« on: June 17, 2006, 09:01:17 pm »
Well, in the last couple years, i looked at many projects that are available for the Zaurus, but none of them really were just "rigth on the money" for me.  I won't even try to make this list complete, but here are some of my complaints:

OZ, GPE, Opie: All seemed to be based upon impenetrable Python scripts.  Last time I looked (and it might have changed, I admit) they were very, very unstable; what built right now might be broken in 5 more minutes.  The size of the tools were so huge, my chances of actually getting my head completely around it were slim.

pdaXrom: I like it was based upon GNU Make macros (I could understand these, and repair them myself), but when I tried to contribute, the guy who ran it, Sashz, wouldn't accept any software; it was a case of "say yes, but do no".  I tried complaining to oesf members, but got no response, when I offered to shoftware host an archive for our own development.   OK, they're out ...

OpenBSD: probably the single most stable, but the problem is, their compatibility level, software-wise, to the GNU tools, is very shakey, and since the QT and GNU tools are important to my end goals, unfortunately, this is also out.  Too bad, they were otherwise the best.

There is a development tool that it seems everyone is ignoring, but which seems to be really, really interesting: it's the Pengutronix folks from Germany.  This is the stuff that's at the center of the pdaXrom development.  in fact, it seems to be more than 85% of what pdaXrom entirely is.  this means, if I can get a system based upon ptxdist (Pengutronix's tool) to work, I will be able to re-gnerate the largest piece of what Sashz has been blocking me out of all these many months.

OK, so maybe I have a possible goal.  I have already used the crosstools to make myself a arm/softfloat compiler, but I thin I will try to fall back on the one provided by ptxdist.  If anyone wants to join me in this, it's still quite early, but send me mail, I will freeze no one out, I ask for no money at all.  Tell me please, right up front, if you want me to let yo contribute directly, and (if so) how much you know about ssh and cvs, and whether you would like me to coach you on this.  I will do it as fast as I can, and as fast as events allow.

Well, to goals.  I am wiling to listen here, so I'm putting out my own goals, because THOSE I know.  I want to have two parallel graphics, both available at the same time, and switchable via hotkeys.  One of the graphics to be X11: not sure about the GUI: coiuld be GPE, could be KDE, or even something like WindowMaker.  The other to be baed upon QTopia, the frame buffer, so as to allow all the stuff originally delivered with the Zaurus.

I have ptxdist happily building, but it's huge, needs some chanes, and I'm not reallyy  ready to even commit very much, but if I get some folks together, then, yes, I will commit to an svn archive, and start things off.  I only want to get some folks to come along.  I won't even freeze Sashz out, if he wants in, but if he tries to strangle development, well, I will keep him out of it  then.  No one here can talk me out of that, And I'm really disappointed that folks here allow this to go on.  I'm going to be ready to begin commit within a week maximum, even if I get no offers of help.  Maybe less.  I have a lot more questions to get answered.

Why do another dev system?  Because this one is very simple to modify, so we can all make our own contributions, without having to die over it.  On top of that, I have been a little miffed at some folks who are a lilttle too impressed with themselves, and i will try to keep this as open as possible, consistent with good quality control (I used to be a release engineer).

InSearchOf

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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2006, 09:40:37 pm »
I will be the first reply to this thread...

If I could see how well built the ptxdist is built... and how it is stuctured.... then yes... I would be willing to help out the cause...

I going to do a lil research on this Pengutronix... will get back to you... if I could get a working ROM for the Z... I would do alot more building from the Z it self... Cross compiling isnt my thing...

Late
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Please visit pdaXrom.org for updates
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Cresho

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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2006, 09:46:44 pm »
Not sure why another flavor is being discussed here.

Sharprom works fine.  Not sure how long sharp will stay with the cause though and the next step would be openzaurus on an Axim?

I say stick with the guns and build software for the sharprom.
Zaurus C-3200 (internal 8gb seagate drive) with buuf icon theme, cacko 1.23 full,  and also Meanie's pdaxqtrom-Debian/Open Office
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InSearchOf

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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2006, 09:56:13 pm »
Quote
Not sure why another flavor is being discussed here.

I agree Cresho... If it is fine with Chuckr... I vote to move this to the general topic forum....

Late
Sharp Zaurus SL-C3100 and SL-6000L
pdaXrom Developer
Please visit pdaXrom.org for updates
My Blog
IRC #pdaxrom @ FreeNode

chuckr

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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2006, 10:21:39 pm »
Quote
Quote
Not sure why another flavor is being discussed here.

I agree Cresho... If it is fine with Chuckr... I vote to move this to the general topic forum....

Late
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
it doesn't bother me, but maybe let this wait at least one day, see what folks who DO their own software say.  If you are relying on Sharp, then it's extremely obvious that you don't do any software yourself, because Sharp hasn't opened up their software, they've only allowed you to sell your apps alongside theirs.  You can't contribute to those who won't take it (which is why I couldn;'t get  along with Cacko (pdaXrom), cause he wouldn't actually take patches.

But as far as moving it, please, I'm not as good as I could be at this (using oesf yet) so I maay have made a mistake in placment, and I wouldn't mind getting it moved, IF it wasn't hidden.

Snappy

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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2006, 10:23:25 pm »
As far as the principle of linux is concerned, I guess it's not a bad thing to have more openness ... but I was just wondering if channelling new coding efforts to OZ/GPE or OZ/OPIE would be a better alternative than forking pdaXrom?

OZ/OPIE <-> SHARP/Cacko
OZ/GPE  <-> pdaXrom

Is the above a good generally idea of the GUI match?
Snappy!
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<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>SL-C1000 with Cacko 1.23 full
Accessories: Wifi XI-825 CF  |  16GB (6) SDHC (Transcend) | 1GB 80x CF (RiDATA PRO-2) </span>

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<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>SL-5500 with OZ/GPE 3.5.4.1 alpha3 build 2006-04-27
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Meanie

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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2006, 10:59:19 pm »
so what you are proposing here is to create a fork of pdaXrom. Do you really think it is wise to do so? The Zaurus community is quite small and already quite fragmented. Adding more fragmentation surely will only add more confusion and user anguish?

but I can see where you are coming from. the current status of pdaXrom isn't very pretty. one could say it is out of control and at a risk to just vapourise but it is not just that bad yet.

maybe we should all take a little breath and try again to reconcile our perceived differences and try to work something out that will help everyone.

pdaXrom has lots of things going for it which is what attracted me to it initially. but lately, those things are vapourising and OZ is picking up trying to imitate some of them.

what I liked about pdaXrom is that it was based on stable packages, not bleeding edge stuff but that has changed...
the other things good about it was the native dev tools which made compiling on the Z itself easy as pie so I could compile stuff anywhere I and my Z were without needing to be at my PC.
also the vmware image and iso image for X86 was great (cause all my PCs run windows) so I could try out pdaX on a PC before putting it on my Z and also cross compile from the pdaX version.
pdaXrom also had a great community with lots of people contributing and generally being a cheerful bunch of non cynical users.
it was also using an almost compatible set of libraries and kernel to the Sharp ROM.
lots of games were being compiled for pdaXrom (I personally dont play much but its good to have some around when you feel like a game or two so its a good thing)
lots of other useful contributions were made by other users and pgas enthusiastically collected them all and put them on the contrib feeds.
the community worked together for coming up with better ways of doing things, ie the new package announcement thread.

beta1 was looking good, things were relatively stable and further betas should eventually resolve all the bugs and there was a notion that a stable 1.1 release was near.

then things started to go down the hill. rivalry with oz team, but that's over now thank goodness.
the pdaxrom site got revamped and links kept changing. it was bad, but everyone knew it was only going to be temporarily and that was accepted without much fuss.
then beta4 and new bootloader hit us.
there was a lot of chaos and a lot of people felt abandoned.

the 2.6 kernel stuff should had been done later or branched off to another release such as 1.1.1 or 1.2. would had made things less confusing
a release based on the 2.4 kernel should had been finalised first before playing with the 2.6 stuff or at least created two branches.

on the communication site, nobody really knew what was going on. the pdaxrom wiki was being worked on by volunteers from the pdaxrom community and blogs were made available. however, the blogs were mainly about the latest hacks, fixes to the latest beta4  but not much was communicated about the state of other things like, access to the contribution and user community section, version control system being worked on, etc... so people thought nothing was happening.

i was supposed to get access to the system to submit packages and code but it never happened and I lost interest while waiting...
SL-C3000 - pdaXii13 build5.4.9 (based on pdaXrom beta3) / SL-C3100 - Sharp ROM 1.02 JP (heavily customised)
Netgear MA701 CF, SanDisk ConnectPlus CF, Socket Bluetooth CF, 4GB Kingston CF,  4GB pqi SD, 4GB ChoiceOnly SD, 2GB SanDisk SD USB Plus, 1GB SanDisk USB Plus, 1GB Transcend SD, 2GB SanDisk MicroSD with SD adaptor, Piel Frama Leather Case, GoldX 5-in-1 USB cable, USB hub, USB mouse, USB keyboard, USB ethernet, USB HDD, many other USB accessories...
(Zaurus SL-C3000 owner since March 14. 2005, Zaurus SL-C3100 owner since September 21. 2005)
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adf

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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2006, 12:28:32 am »
my .02 U$

when I bought my 1st Z, a pxa250 5600, } thoughtthat dev on Z should concentrate on kernel/hardware stuff, and that pert should be sent back up to debian in hopes of making a real native debian zaurus distro (probably based on ssarge.) the pocketworkstation tools to lighten up debian stuff seeemd like a good idea.   I was dissuaded by the lightweight ipk concept.  pdax or oz has a deb to ipk conversion tool, I think.  If we are gong to do some other damned project (like I do any work on any of this stuff lol) why not work to incorporate the Z into an extant system--- like debian.  At this point, I doubt the Z is the most obscure arm computer around, and debian already buikds for arm....what...netwinders????

storage is now big and cheap.   the current zs run on an entirely open 2.6.  isn't native debian now conceivable? If you don't want to work on OZ, and can't work on pdax, and view sharprom as antique, and dead-  then bring the z into a larger world, not another splinter of one.  If DEBIan won' do it' keep trying distros-- ubuntu might, or novell might see cmmercial value innn a suse based Z.  PLEASE!  not another release of very whizzy sounding compilers 8 versions of aplha software and all the useful stuff broken--all based on some obscure script-fu that exists nowhere else but your project.  In other words, I fear this will turn out to be a pdaxish son-of-OE. and we already have both.  Then again, if you can get it going.......
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ZDevil

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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2006, 03:02:19 am »
Quote
my .02 U$

when I bought my 1st Z, a pxa250 5600, } thoughtthat dev on Z should concentrate on kernel/hardware stuff, and that pert should be sent back up to debian in hopes of making a real native debian zaurus distro (probably based on ssarge.) the pocketworkstation tools to lighten up debian stuff seeemd like a good idea.   I was dissuaded by the lightweight ipk concept.  pdax or oz has a deb to ipk conversion tool, I think.  If we are gong to do some other damned project (like I do any work on any of this stuff lol) why not work to incorporate the Z into an extant system--- like debian.  At this point, I doubt the Z is the most obscure arm computer around, and debian already buikds for arm....what...netwinders????

storage is now big and cheap.   the current zs run on an entirely open 2.6.  isn't native debian now conceivable? If you don't want to work on OZ, and can't work on pdax, and view sharprom as antique, and dead-  then bring the z into a larger world, not another splinter of one.  If DEBIan won' do it' keep trying distros-- ubuntu might, or novell might see cmmercial value innn a suse based Z.  PLEASE!  not another release of very whizzy sounding compilers 8 versions of aplha software and all the useful stuff broken--all based on some obscure script-fu that exists nowhere else but your project.  In other words, I fear this will turn out to be a pdaxish son-of-OE. and we already have both.  Then again, if you can get it going.......
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=131600\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Wow, for me it will be the most amazing thing to be able to do on Z. Real and complete Debian!
But then the question is: What are the (technical) obstacles?
I've also heard that Debian is arm-friendly, and actually we can get some of the .deb packages to run directly on Sharp ROM by dropping the application and the required lib in the right paths. But how can it be done to make Z boot into Debian natively and directly? That's my dummy question.  
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 03:03:35 am by ZDevil »

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Snappy

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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2006, 04:58:27 am »
NetBSD is pretty friendly on PDA/Handheld devices as well ... I remember running HPCArm port on a Jornada 680e.

Need to check the status on the Arm port though ...
Snappy!
------------------------
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<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>SL-C1000 with Cacko 1.23 full
Accessories: Wifi XI-825 CF  |  16GB (6) SDHC (Transcend) | 1GB 80x CF (RiDATA PRO-2) </span>

Collie (Sandbox)
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>SL-5500 with OZ/GPE 3.5.4.1 alpha3 build 2006-04-27
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tml

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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2006, 05:04:25 am »
Quote
There is a development tool that it seems everyone is ignoring, but which seems to be really, really interesting: it's the Pengutronix folks from Germany.  This is the stuff that's at the center of the pdaXrom development.  in fact, it seems to be more than 85% of what pdaXrom entirely is.  this means, if I can get a system based upon ptxdist (Pengutronix's tool) to work, I will be able to re-gnerate the largest piece of what Sashz has been blocking me out of all these many months.
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I neither compile the software I use on the zaurus nor do I develop for the zaurus so I'm probably not the intended audience. Nevertheless, I'm not sure if more of the same is what "we" need -- although I admit that a pdaxrom-like x11-based distro with proper user accounts & vim7 & windowmaker & working suspend etc. would be extremely useful.

A debian-based distro would be nice too of course although this wouldn't fit into the internal ram I think -- not so cool.

Anyway, I somehow agree that the sharp rom still is usability-wise the best solution at the moment -- in the sense of being able to do the most with it as an end user. I think one also has to think of what is an appropriate use for such a device. Things I'd like to do are: run vim(7), run ruby 1.8 programs (preferably with tk or gtk gui), run zbedic, read html files, read pdf files. The bottom line is, I really don't care about technicalities -- except that I prefer a distro with proper user accounts/roles (I don't want to log in as root) and that I'd prefer a proper package management system with proper dependency management (i.e. something other than ipk). So, what I'm currently looking for and what I personally see a need for is much rather one of these than developing the next most-likely-never-to-be-finished-polished-and-shining distro:
- improving the terminal/console for qpe-based roms (i.e. improve qkonsole so that the full screen mode works properly)
- develop a good pdf viewer (qpdf(2) is nice due to the lack of an alternative for qpe-based roms; xpdf isn't much better IMHO)
- create an easy to use & easy to setup cross-compiling sdk for the current cygwin environment

I still follow the pdaxrom-related discussion because I think that a x11-based distro would have enormous potential and because I had the impression that pdaxrom was the closest to be actually useful. If you think you can do it, please do so.
SL-C3100

Cresho

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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2006, 06:26:48 am »
Quote
If you are relying on Sharp, then it's extremely obvious that you don't do any software yourself, because Sharp hasn't opened up their software, they've only allowed you to sell your apps alongside theirs.  You can't contribute to those who won't take it (which is why I couldn;'t get  along with Cacko (pdaXrom), cause he wouldn't actually take patches.

yep!  your damn right!  Nurses do not know C++, GNU development tools, java, python.............................................and I feel for you when you have people like sharp making stuff so difficult along with trolltech.  and last but not least, people not accepting your fixes.  I tried both pdaxrom and openzaurus.  Both are great.....but have big minuses and this is understandible.

In your quest, you would need gangs of support and not only that, how many versions of zauruses are floating around?  Even after building and getting a proper environment for the z which would be supported accross all sl's and c's platform, how about software???!!!!  your going to be so busy like sashz and drown.  Not only that.....only around less than 10000 registered users on the forums only which I see around 2000 active and about 1000 c users in the forums.  now start carving the pie on how many people actually flashed another rom and it starts to get very small and it's getting more fragmented.

Need gangs of support.,,,,...something like sashz support. and no job too just to finish projects.

If we can get debian on the z something like pocketworkstation as the main operating system, then we can see alot of stuff come together like a snap because of the mountains of software available already.  The only problem with that, the idea of pocketworkstation seems to be droped and no updates since......Even then, where are you going to get the drivers.....just hack away.  Last i flashed pdaxrom, my z kept suspending and the light would not work.  Only trickery of odd fingers made it come back to life and disabling suspend.  If sashz knew how to fix the problem, it would of been done long ago but he is hacking stuff!  sharp will not release hardware info for developers?  We are stuck i guess huh.

consider these for the os-
how stable can you make it?
do you have the speed to launch mozilla in 10 seconds?
can i put the rom image on the microdisk instead of the 128mb?
how easy is it to develop or port over other apps?
how about a decent website where i can read usefull information on the rom, developer's tools download the applications and not juggle through light years of links?
how easy would it be to reflash the z to standard spec?

The way I see it, they own the software and the hardware.  If they choose, they can totally stop the zaurus line and leave us in the dark.  At the moment, zaurus in japan is pretty big and as long as that is around, we have the zaurus.  I like the idea of a stable environment in my hand and Meanie(sorry guy but i have to preach you) Made and effort to bring pdaxrom on the sharprom.  Seriously you can run alot of good applications on the sharprom.

anyway, I tried squeezing everything I know in this small paragraph.  These are my hopes as of the moment and hope it will help your quest.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 11:45:07 am by Cresho »
Zaurus C-3200 (internal 8gb seagate drive) with buuf icon theme, cacko 1.23 full,  and also Meanie's pdaxqtrom-Debian/Open Office
Zaurus SL-5500 Sharp Rom 3.13 with steel theme
pretec pocket pc wi fi
ambicom bt2000-cf bluetooth-made in taiwan
simpletech 1gb cf
pny 1gb sd
patriot 2gb
ocz or patriot 4gb sd(failed after 2 weeks)only on z
creative csw-5300 speakers in stereo
DigiLife DDV-1000 for video, Audio, Picture recording playable on the zaurus
Mustek DV4500-video recorder, pictures, voice record on sd for z

zaurusthemes.biz | ZaurusVideo | Zaurus Software

Mickeyl

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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2006, 09:31:44 am »
Quote
Why do another dev system?  Because this one is very simple to modify, so we can all make our own contributions, without having to die over it.  On top of that, I have been a little miffed at some folks who are a lilttle too impressed with themselves, and i will try to keep this as open as possible, consistent with good quality control (I used to be a release engineer).

It may be not what you want to hear, but I don't buy this logic. The system is simple to modify and easy to understand while it's small -- e.g. while you target only one or few models and have a monolithic system that is not configurable.

Sooner or later you will add more targets, more software, more configurability, and all the attractiveness through simplicity will vanish. The system will get streched and you will lock out all users who didn't grow up with it. The OpenZaurus guys have been there and done that. That's why we abandonded our Make-based system (buildroot).

Take a fresh look at OpenEmbedded, it's been designed from the ground up to prevent this problem. It may need you to learn a bit more at the beginning, but this learning curve is not exponential. Once you have learned the OE basics, there is not much more to learn, since it is based on object oriented concepts and simplicity at the heart of the .bb language - it's really a flat learning curve after the first steps. Most beginners who were motivated to learn something new are saying that now.

As for the size of the tools, well, BitBake is like 2.2Mb, Monotone is like 5Mb, OpenEmbedded repository is 122Mb. This is containing all our patches to applications and all revisions we ever did. Now you only need the additional sources, but this requirement is shared with all other tools...

Oh last but not least, if only you need a SDK, you can use OE to build one. It will be like 80Mb or so.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 10:30:10 am by Mickeyl »
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rolf

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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2006, 10:52:34 am »
Quote
Take a fresh look at OpenEmbedded
I second this.  I am not even a programmer, but I think OE is the best choice.  Easy to understand, lots of momentum, helpful people.  

My impression is that people "unknowledgeable" like me can make good contribution to OE since we find the absurdest bugs.  Getting them out of OE is happening fast and I think one of the most valuable contributions to OE at this point in time.  

I have very special requirements, but even these have been fulfilled as of late and I was able in contributing to make it happen and I have no clue about C and only know the rough concepts of python.  I could not even write Hello World in python (although I wanted to learn for a long time how to program in python).  There are more packages than you can chew in OE.

PS: I do agree that the first steps of even the latest versions were a bit rough.  I suggest using a loop file on either CF or SD which you can back up from time to time and thus backup and recreate your complete system in 15 seconds by just copying a single file.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 09:38:41 am by rolf »

chuckr

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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2006, 12:13:12 pm »
Well, I guess it's about time I replied.

First, I think I better say, if you don't do any software yourself, then I don't believe you have any right to even comment upon this.  the phrase "Dutch Uncle" comes to mind here, so if you don't do software, I don't think you have a right to comment, in any way, upon the doing of those who do.  I'm not trying to insult you, but those are my feelings.

Second, I've had some comments says that the OPIE/GPE tools are simple.  That's untrue.  Try understanding the workings of all those python scripts.  You actually CAN do that with the ptxdist stuff, the scripts I saw made sense, and while their documentation level is very, very low, their support level is very very right (maybe as high as the Opie/GPE folks all put together! they have mailing lists, irc channels, and lots of willingness to help.

So, which you might (after a lot of work) be able to understand WHAT the python scrupts are doing, I rather doubt you will get to the level of fixing the python scripts themselves.  They are FAR more complicated than the Pengutronix stuff is.

Those of you who suggested staying with either pdaXrom or Cacko: are you aware that pdaXrom IS Cacko?  They are one and the same, Cacko was the earlier name, is all.  Past that, Sashz controls all of the code with an iron hand, and you CAN'T COMMIT to it, he won't open his archive.  If it were open, I would have conributed to it a long time back, when I first tried to teach Sashz the workings of cvs and ssh.  If he won't allow it, all I could do is sit aroudn with you folks, but I want to contribute, not just talk about contributing.  I suspect those who suggested staying wiht Cacko must have been one of the folks who doesn't themselves write software.  Like I said, those are Dutch Uncles, they don't qualify to comment on a development project if they aren't developers.