Author Topic: linux on Gemini  (Read 15050 times)

terryowen

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linux on Gemini
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 04:19:37 pm »
A month ago I asked PC about the Linux situation and their reply said it was in the firmware. You have to wade back through quite a few comments to see it.

I've never done an attachment here but will try to add the screen print of their reply.

Grench

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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2018, 05:09:03 pm »
Quote from: terryowen
A month ago I asked PC about the Linux situation and their reply said it was in the firmware. You have to wade back through quite a few comments to see it.

I've never done an attachment here but will try to add the screen print of their reply.

What planet said in your screen capture:
"Terry, we will provide direct boot into Linux on firmware versions. Regards, Planet"

Call me overly negative, but I suspect you are reading more into that than they actually said.

They did NOT say that Android and Linux were both going to be present in the firmware (eMMC) on shipped units.
They DID say that they, "will provide direct boot into Linux on firmware versions."

I interpret that as downloadable Linux that you can use to replace the Android install on the eMMC or, as in the example they showed at CES, use the image boot Linux from the microSDXC.

Really, it's actually a good thing if Linux isn't co-mingled with Android on the factory eMMC image.

depscribe

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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2018, 05:17:06 pm »
Quote from: Grench
I disagree.  In the demonstration of booting Linux, a restart with a button-hold during restart was required.  That is a hardware pointer change.  This tells me that it is most likely booting from the microSDXC at that point.

The good news is, we shall know which of us read the tea leaves correctly pretty soon now.
dep

Atari Portfolio (yes, it still works and yes, I bought it new)
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And, now, a Gemini and, fortunately, a GPD Pocket

terryowen

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linux on Gemini
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2018, 05:44:14 pm »
Quote
What planet said in your screen capture:
"Terry, we will provide direct boot into Linux on firmware versions. Regards, Planet"

Call me overly negative, but I suspect you are reading more into that than they actually said.

They did NOT say that Android and Linux were both going to be present in the firmware (eMMC) on shipped units.
They DID say that they, "will provide direct boot into Linux on firmware versions."

All the demo versions had Linux installed. In other interviews they said they were shipping units that would dual boot Android with Linux. None of us will know exactly how that is accomplished until we (or someone) gets their devices.

My problem with having Linux on any type of sd card is the limited write capability. I know some are better than others but it just sounds problematic. I will be disappointed if that's the way they do it.  (It's fine for a person to do that for themselves, of course. ) It would also make it more complicated to swap out the sd cards with your own data.

Grench

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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2018, 06:16:16 pm »
Quote from: depscribe
The good news is, we shall know which of us read the tea leaves correctly pretty soon now.

Agreed.  It's great that the project is advancing more or less on time.  Do we have anyone in the audience who is in the top 500+/- units who can give us all a realistic review/report?

So far, the tech bloggers have been mostly worthless script readers & repeaters.

Quote from: terryowen
My problem with having Linux on any type of sd card is the limited write capability. I know some are better than others but it just sounds problematic. I will be disappointed if that's the way they do it.  (It's fine for a person to do that for themselves, of course. ) It would also make it more complicated to swap out the sd cards with your own data.
Really, it isn't so bad booting Linux from SDXC media on a modern 104MB/s controller using a modern microSDXC card.  If you want to see, download a live image and write it to a microSDXC card in a USB 3.0 reader and boot from it.  Seconds not minutes.

Write isn't as big of an issue as people try to make it out to be.  Consider your use case.  You read from the card to boot.  You read from the card to launch applications.  You read from the card to open that file you're going to work on or the save game you're going to restore.  You only write to it when you save - which is generally one much smaller file.

The microSDXC card in the Gemini is not hot swapable.  I.e. you'll want to shut the device down before removing the back cover and changing the microSDXC card.  Ideally most of us will put one big fast card in it and be set for the next 2+ years.  There isn't really any need to remove the card unless you're going to change the partitioning or upgrade the card to a larger one.

Grench

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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 04:17:57 pm »
So, now we know.  I was right and wrong.

Right - the Gemini is shipping without Linux pre-installed.  It will be up to the end-user to download and install.

Wrong - it looks like there will be a partitioning tool to split up the onboard 64GB eMMC into multiple partitions so that Debian can co-locate on the device with Android.

Maybe Right - the above multi-partition solution implies that the re-partitioning system boots from microSDXC.  Assuming they aren't reinventing the wheel, it is likely a tiny Linux bootable microSD card image with the partitioning software and Linux installer - maybe like a 'live' version.   It should be possible, for those of us who would prefer it, to install Linux to the microSDXC card instead of the eMMC.

depscribe

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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 04:28:38 pm »
Quote from: Grench
Maybe Right - the above multi-partition solution implies that the re-partitioning system boots from microSDXC.  Assuming they aren't reinventing the wheel, it is likely a tiny Linux bootable microSD card image with the partitioning software and Linux installer - maybe like a 'live' version.   It should be possible, for those of us who would prefer it, to install Linux to the microSDXC card instead of the eMMC.

Where did you see the implication that it boots from the card? It looks as if it is part of the flashing software, which runs on a Windows or Linux machine or a Mac.
dep

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salvomic

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linux on Gemini
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 11:03:51 am »
as I'd prefer to have Debian preinstalled and maybe it won't be in Gemini, I wonder if there will be an easy tutorial to flash the disk with Gemini Flash tool and how to install Linux Debian in the Gemini without a glitch. Also how to use a SD to make a partition shared between Android and Linux.
Not every users that want to try Linux are so "geek" to operate without to fear "bricking" the PDA...

Thank you!
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Grench

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2018, 06:58:16 pm »
Quote from: depscribe
Quote from: Grench
Maybe Right - the above multi-partition solution implies that the re-partitioning system boots from microSDXC.  Assuming they aren't reinventing the wheel, it is likely a tiny Linux bootable microSD card image with the partitioning software and Linux installer - maybe like a 'live' version.   It should be possible, for those of us who would prefer it, to install Linux to the microSDXC card instead of the eMMC.

Where did you see the implication that it boots from the card? It looks as if it is part of the flashing software, which runs on a Windows or Linux machine or a Mac.

In order to re-partition a disk/drive/eMMC/SSD, the device needs to be activated (booted) from an alternate boot point.  With the Gemini this means one of seven methods.

1.  Boot from the eMMC to a RAM disk then unmount the eMMC and make it available to the USB port as device to be overwritten by a PC/host computer.  This is unreliable and a short path to brickage if the process gets interrupted.

2.  Boot from an OS on the microSD then either load the OS directly to the eMMC from an image on the microSD.  This is how many Android devices with microSD slots were able to load Cyanogenmod.  Usually initiated by holding a button on the device during power on (to switch the boot target).  This is exactly the process that Planet appeared to be doing to boot to Linux at CES, which is why I'm pretty sure they were booting Linux from microSDXC cards there.

3.  Boot from USB media - process is essentially the same as #2 above.  Needs some sort of switch (button hold at power on) to tell it to target USB for booting.

The two above can all be done with JUST the Gemini - no additional computer required.  All simple with very low likelihood of bricking the device.

Boot the Gemini to Android (normal function).
Download the microSDXC or USB stick installer image.
Write the image to it's destination (microSDXC or USB - whichever one it can boot from).
Verify/check the bootable installer image.
Boot from the installer (hopefully a Debian Live like instance).
Manipulate partitions, select target, install from the boot device to the unmounted eMMC.
If all else fails, re-download the installer ISO image on a PC and dd it onto media (microSDXC or USB) then boot the Gemini from that.
Simple, reliable.

4.  Run specialized software on a PC to provide a virtualboot-host over the USB port (much like a USB boot image from #2).  Unit needs to be put into a state to accept this boot target (as in #2 and #3) and an OS image to write to the unmounted eMMC.  This is how most consumer devices without microSD ports (phones, tablets, ereaders, etc) get their initial factory OS loaded.  Usually there is some form of encrypted signing involved to validate the imaging connection.   This is complicated and and an entirely unnecessary step as the device would need to be able to boot from a USB image to begin with - at which point it may as well boot from a live Linux image on a USB stick and work entirely within the Gemini itself.  I.e. why on earth would they select this method requiring two computers - one of which they cannot predict the state of (your PC) - when it could be completely done within the one (Gemini) that they know you will have in-hand and a piece of media (microSDXC or USB stick) that is ubiquitous.

Regardless of the method above, there must be a method to change the boot-from device for the above methods to work.  

5.  Load a special - usually signed - 'installer file' to the device then reboot it.  The existing OS on the device checks the directory during boot to see if there is a software update, and if so, boots into a special state where the contents of the file are exploded out to overwrite the other system files.   This method is unlikely to be used for the purpose of adding/moving/shrinking/expanding/changing partitions though as it requires the partition to be active and mounted in order to read the file - unless it reads the file into a ram disk to then flip to while it overwrites the root/system files (again with brickability).  This is probably how your cell phone gets it's OS updates.  Special signed file is downloaded, phone reboots, installs new files from the special file over the old files.

6.  BIOS/system/firmware boot order includes USB check to see if there is a USB host connected and waiting - then if so puts the device in a USB device mode entirely driven within firmware.  At that point it makes an easy target to repartition from the computer it is connected to and any OS image is a dd from image file away.  This method has some drawbacks too.  It requires that the device have a distinct and independent USB logic controller to act as 'device mode' that runs before the eMMC boots.  Effectively a sub-computer with it's own firmware within the Gemini just to handle running it in device mode USB.  This strikes me as unlikely, difficult to secure, and very unreliable.

7.  Magic.  This is a placeholder in case they dreamed up something entirely novel or at least new to me.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:05:46 pm by Grench »

depscribe

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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2018, 08:22:15 pm »
What leads me to suppose it will require a USB connection to a PC or a Mac is that they seem to say as much in Update 49:

"We have developed a Gemini Flashing Tool that will enable you to partition your Gemini flash memory and install Linux alongside Android. The Gemini Flashing Tool runs on a standard PC (in fact it should be able run on Windows, Mac and Linux) and it’s basically a front-end to well know utilities such as adb, Xflash and fastboot. It will guide you through the various steps needed to install Linux on the Gemini, allowing you to choose the space to be reserved for Android and for Linux.

"By using the partition tool you will basically transform your Android-only Gemini into a dual boot Android/Linux Gemini (and back, if you wish so). You can also use the tool to manually update Android, for example to install a rooted Android version."

They're silent on whether anything can be booted from a micro SD card.
dep

Atari Portfolio (yes, it still works and yes, I bought it new)
Libretto 110 CT (with docking station and all kinds of PCMCIA stuff)
And, now, a Gemini and, fortunately, a GPD Pocket

salvomic

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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2018, 06:18:51 am »
Just a minute ago Planet Computers updated the page support for Linux:
«Please note that Linux support is still under development at the moment, and the Debian technology preview is mainly for people who wants to experiment with it. We will provide updated firmwares in the next few weeks, please stay tuned!»

Let's hope to have soon a Debian updated and an updated Gemini Flash Tool also.

Salvo
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salvomic

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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2018, 11:04:15 am »
New: Linux Flash Guide, welcome!

Salvo
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Murple2

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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2018, 11:47:39 am »
Quote from: salvomic
New: Linux Flash Guide, welcome!

Salvo


Thanks!

JMD

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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2018, 04:49:16 am »
Hi just got my Gemini and found this post, have downloaded the drivers and tool but the Debian img is corrupt, I've tried downloading a couple of times even used wget but every time I unzip it it says the img is corrupt. Anyone else having the same problem?

Ta, J

salvomic

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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2018, 05:28:17 am »
Quote from: JMD
Hi just got my Gemini and found this post, have downloaded the drivers and tool but the Debian img is corrupt, I've tried downloading a couple of times even used wget but every time I unzip it it says the img is corrupt. Anyone else having the same problem?

Ta, J

hi,
I haven't tried (not having still Gemini) but I'd advice to wait one or two weeks to install Linux: if I'm not wrong PC will release another update for Debian, as the "Technology preview" is still experimental and not yet complete.

Salvo
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