Author Topic: Pdaxrom Apps And Openzaurus Gpe  (Read 13075 times)

enodr

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Pdaxrom Apps And Openzaurus Gpe
« on: April 20, 2006, 04:17:14 pm »
I was wondering if pdaxrom apps would run under openzaurus gpe and vice versa?

If my understanding is good, the two roms are running x11, so they sould be able to run the same apps?

Antikx

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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 05:17:47 pm »
Quote
I was wondering if pdaxrom apps would run under openzaurus gpe and vice versa?

If my understanding is good, the two roms are running x11, so they sould be able to run the same apps?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I would think that you would typically have to recompile pdaXrom apps (and it's dependancies) for OZ's newer kernel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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merli

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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 02:31:37 am »
Quote
Quote
I was wondering if pdaxrom apps would run under openzaurus gpe and vice versa?

If my understanding is good, the two roms are running x11, so they sould be able to run the same apps?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
I would think that you would typically have to recompile pdaXrom apps (and it's dependancies) for OZ's newer kernel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I think that problem is not kernel but newer glibc in OZ
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enodr

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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 03:38:20 am »
From what I have seen OpenZaurus has a glibc compatibility library to run original Sharp ROM apps.

That would be so fantastic to have a common app feed for OZ GPE and PdaXrom. Don't you agree?

Hrw

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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 03:48:35 am »
That 'compatibility library to run original sharp rom apps' are libqte/libqpe which are not even supposed to work correctly due to hardfloat/softfloat change.

Feed for OZ/GPE and PdaX... OZ/GPE can probably run pdaX stuff (if you install all deps by hand due to lack of dependencies info in some of pdax packages) but not vice-versa due to glibc difference.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 04:28:07 am by Hrw »
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pgas

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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 04:10:44 am »
I think Oz and pdaxrom  also use different softfloat  libraries

PS:
hrw please stop this, lack of dependencies exist for packages contributed by users but dependencies do exist in the pdaxrom feed....

I can also point you to Oz threads about packages installation and dependencies problem if you want

You're progaganda will be much more effective if you spend your time documenting the strong points of OZ (and OE) rather than trying to bash other distributions on things that  people can easily notice are not true (when they care about those things)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 04:12:08 am by pgas »
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lardman

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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 07:08:54 am »
Quote
hrw please stop this, lack of dependencies exist for packages contributed by users but dependencies do exist in the pdaxrom feed....

The main issue I've met when trying to install pdaX ipks is that the control file format is different - afair it lacks fields that the OZ version of ipkg requires. In addition, iirc, the arch setting is either not present or not right (for OZ) to allow the files to install without hacking them around.

With that said, things may have changed with pdaX since I last tried this (probably two minor releases ago.)

Regarding hrw's point - iirc the names of packages under pdaX sometimes differ from the OZ names - this does cause problems and means that the deps will probably need to be hacked.


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maxg

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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 09:15:30 am »
I'd say the problem is IPKG v0.99 in OZ (painfully SLOW ! not standard targz ipks !). But on the other hand the strong point of OZ is the 2.6 kernel and the newer glibc.
You're right about floating point format too. I found that glibc from OZ uses FPA, while pdaX is all softvfp (a very logical choice if you ask me). OZ builds arm- targets rather poorly optimized, but it's because they need compatibility with old zaurus OZ was originally created for. There are -mtune xscale but no -mcpu targets, and no iwmmxt. This is all because of untested bitbake configs (don't they have a single SL-Cxx00 ?). Softfloat seems totally messy to me as well. With GCC from the OZ devel/ feed, a simple printf("%f \n", 5/2); will print 3.0000000000 (!!) if you try any PXA270 optimization flags (-mcpu xscale or -mcpu iwmmxt or softvfp). The best thing to do would be to have the same GCC build settings, and softvfp everywhere, because it's what will work best on XScales.
Do not be hard on OZ, though. Their 2.6.16 kernel is far better, it probably required a lot of work, and it suspends PERFECTLY well, and very fast with that.
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lardman

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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 10:21:39 am »
Quote
I'd say the problem is IPKG v0.99 in OZ (painfully SLOW ! not standard targz ipks !).

I think, though may be wrong, that this is probably related to the size of the feed databases for OZ compared with pdaX. I'm pretty sure that OZ has more packages listed which just means that it takes longer to parse them, etc.

Quote
You're right about floating point format too. I found that glibc from OZ uses FPA, while pdaX is all softvfp (a very logical choice if you ask me). OZ builds arm- targets rather poorly optimized, but it's because they need compatibility with old zaurus OZ was originally created for.

Yes, the packages in the feeds are all arm4 because OZ supports a range of hardware and only uses one feed. What does pdaX do (it supports the 5500 I thought)? That said, if you build your own packages for a given machine, they are optimised for that arch automatically.

Yes, fpa vs vfp - vfp is probably faster (I'd be interested to see benchmarks actually) and certainly makes programming/cross-compiling easier (the floating point data have the same endianness as the processor with vfp, with fpa they are always little endian iirc). vfp will be supported once th eabi toolchain is up and running. I must look at the patches that pdaX uses to implement vfp for its toolchain when I have some time.

Quote
and no iwmmxt

My understanding was that this is a hack that is 2.4.x only? Still, something is probably necessary under 2.6.x (I don't have one of these machines so I don't know much about it.)

Quote
With GCC from the OZ devel/ feed, a simple printf("%f \n", 5/2); will print 3.0000000000 (!!) if you try any PXA270 optimization flags (-mcpu xscale or -mcpu iwmmxt or softvfp). The best thing to do would be to have the same GCC build settings, and softvfp everywhere, because it's what will work best on XScales.

Interesting!? Did you try to run the resulting binary on a pdaX system? This might be the cause of the problems.


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koen

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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2006, 10:37:25 am »
Quote
I'd say the problem is IPKG v0.99 in OZ (painfully SLOW ! not standard targz ipks !).[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Standard .tgz? What crack are you on? ipkg has been using ar-wrapped tarballs for years now, so the *standard* is what OZ is using. pdaX is using a *non*-standard ipkg format. Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense. (ask the ipkg author if you don't believe me)
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enodr

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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2006, 11:34:21 am »
Quote
The main issue I've met when trying to install pdaX ipks is that the control file format is different - afair it lacks fields that the OZ version of ipkg requires. In addition, iirc, the arch setting is either not present or not right (for OZ) to allow the files to install without hacking them around.

With that said, things may have changed with pdaX since I last tried this (probably two minor releases ago.)

Regarding hrw's point - iirc the names of packages under pdaX sometimes differ from the OZ names - this does cause problems and means that the deps will probably need to be hacked.
Si
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124014\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Didn't think my question would raise such an interesting thread. I am new to the Zaurus and didn't understood well what where the real differences between all those ROMs. It's interesting to have all those technical details about the "internals" of OZ, pdaXrom or other.

As for the ipk format, as a user, but also as a hobbyist developper, I would love that the two ipks feeds could be compatible; I see apps available in pdaXrom feed that I would like to run under OZ, and I am sure it's true on both sides for many users.
It would be a real progress if I could compile an app and package an ipk that both OZ and pdaXrom users could use.

I'd like to read some comments about this from you guys the OZ and pdaXrom developpers. Would it be really to much complicated to unite the ipk feeds and solve those (small?) details pointed out above (cf quote)?

maxg

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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2006, 12:44:11 pm »
Quote
Yes, the packages in the feeds are all arm4 because OZ supports a range of hardware and only uses one feed. What does pdaX do (it supports the 5500 I thought)? That said, if you build your own packages for a given machine, they are optimised for that arch automatically.

You're right about that, OE does support a lot more machines. But the point is, why one single armv4 feed (well, convenience for maintenance and disk space may be reasons, but still.) Building the whole OE is not something everyone will want to do. I can tell because I actually did it once, and only the bootstrap image. It took time, and a lot of disk space. I just wanted a 121MB / partition.

Quote
Yes, fpa vs vfp - vfp is probably faster (I'd be interested to see benchmarks actually) and certainly makes programming/cross-compiling easier (the floating point data have the same endianness as the processor with vfp, with fpa they are always little endian iirc). vfp will be supported once th eabi toolchain is up and running. I must look at the patches that pdaX uses to implement vfp for its toolchain when I have some time.

Once again, you're right, there won't be a big improvement (in a 0~10% range, is fp is used at all of course), but still it would be better if we could have everything running vfp, which is the recommanded option for the platform. Having "Cannot link /tmp/X.o because libc6... uses FPA while ... does not" is not a friendly error, it means "go and rebuild your whole toolchain" (my mistake trying to make a working and optimized GCC4.1.0 vfp toolchain...)

Quote
My understanding was that this is a hack that is 2.4.x only? Still, something is probably necessary under 2.6.x (I don't have one of these machines so I don't know much about it.)

I don't think so... I even found a enable_iwmmxt-r0.patch for 2.6.16 somewhere in the OE commits, but everything is so "complicated", sashz working alone doesn't have those problems. While we're at it, you made mention of EABI toolchains. The iwmmxt EABI in GCC 4.1.0 (and CVS) with glibc 2.4 is supposed to be improved, according to changelogs. You have to edit a little bit to get vfp working. I couldn't make it work with the OE build system, but I just probably don't know exactly how it works. But it would be great if someone could manage to build the armv5te iwmmxt EABI toolchain.

Quote
Interesting!? Did you try to run the resulting binary on a pdaX system? This might be the cause of the problems.

No, in fact it was with OZ 3.5.4.1-alpha2. But I might have played a bit with -mfloat as well, maybe to try making vfp work. I will test it again to find the exact cause of the problem.

Quote
Standard .tgz? What crack are you on? ipkg has been using ar-wrapped tarballs for years now, so the *standard* is what OZ is using. pdaX is using a *non*-standard ipkg format. Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense. (ask the ipkg author if you don't believe me)

You are being disrespectful. http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg doesn't impose ar wrapped ipks at all. It only says gzipped ipks are a waste of CPU, which is true. By "standard", I only meant the most used. The Sharp ROM and Cacko used targz ipks last time I checked. Do not forget that OE isn't the only ROM around. And I'm not on crack, I'm just on patching GCC and glibc (is that worst ?)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 12:47:48 pm by maxg »
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koen

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2006, 01:37:06 pm »
Quote
You are being disrespectful. http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg doesn't impose ar wrapped ipks at all. It only says gzipped ipks are a waste of CPU, which is true. By "standard", I only meant the most used. The Sharp ROM and Cacko used targz ipks last time I checked. Do not forget that OE isn't the only ROM around. And I'm not on crack, I'm just on patching GCC and glibc (is that worst ?)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124059\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

1) OE isn't a ROM
2) your 'ROM" isn't even a ROM, but writeable flash
3) sharprom and cacko are *really* small compared to the other ipkg based distros in wide use, so yes, ar wrapped tarballs are the standard, not the 5 year old crap the sharprom is using.
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Laze

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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2006, 04:02:24 pm »
Koen: As always you make good and polite comments/statements which are well thought out and explained in a friendly manner.

Again look at pgas posting above...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 04:03:26 pm by Laze »
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koen

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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2006, 05:04:24 pm »
Quote
Koen: As always you make good and polite comments/statements which are well thought out and explained in a friendly manner.

Again look at pgas posting above...
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I'm just responding to the lies you pdaX people are spreading. It's really easy to avoid my snide remark: STOP SPREADING LIES
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