Author Topic: Encoding Video for Zaurus...  (Read 26754 times)

TonyOlsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
    • http://www.userdimensions.com/Tony/Resume.html
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2004, 10:52:18 am »
Quote
Perhaps a new business venture for you?  You can probably charge a nice fee...like $8-$10 per DVD due to the tremendous time it takes to rip a reasonably good copy.


Nah... I would just do it for free.  It gets sticky as soon as money becomes involved.  I want to make sure that I never do anything even close to this for any fee... even if it is legal to charge money, it puts me in a whole different playing field.

Quote
Nope. CDs are legal precisely because they aren\'t encrypted, so the DMCA doesn\'t apply.


How about VCDs?  Encryption is nothing more than a layer of abstraction in a (vain) attempt to detere copying.  I don\'t understand why whether the deterant is \"encryption\" or not should matter for the lawmakers.  It wouldn\'t be hard for them to pervert that law and say that VCDs are \"encrypted\" since they\'re \"encoded\".  In fact, almost everything in computers is encrypted to one layer or another.  I can\'t play my RealVideo and Quicktime videos on my Zaurus because my Zaurus doesn\'t yet have the \"decryption\" to \"decrypt\" the code into a series of plain bitmaps for the screen to use.  Now, \"encryption\" is not the purpose of a codec... it is only a side-effect.

When I worked at RealNetworks, I created a temporary TCPIP Network Proxy for their multicast video streams.  I learned about the headers of the video files and the handshaking that goes on inbetween the player and the server before the video gets streamed.  One of the things the server asks for from the player in a secret key to verify the player is authentic.  This key was just a simple static string, but the video wasn\'t available without it.  Does this qualify as encryption?  In short I believe that any compression, or anything that requires a layer of code to translate the data back into a form that is usable, is a form of encryption.  That then bleeds into almost any file format out there... whether it compresses or not.  My Word documents require a program that can \"decrypt\" the Word format.  Otherwise the data is useless to me.

\"Encyption\", as we use it, changes from year to year.  I\'m sure people would have considered Microsoft Word formats \"encrypted\" when they first came out, because if you transmitted the data, noone could read it or make sense of it unless they had the needed program to \"decrypt\" it.  We don\'t general consider Word documents \"encrypted files\" because our standards for what is \"encryption\" have gone up.  Now it isn\'t considered \"encrypted\" unless there are secret keys involved (like a Word program that changes on the fly for different formats depending on the key that is given).  I imagine that in the future, when an even better encryption is invented, that people will look back at 128-bit encryption and not think of it as \"true\" encryption.

In fact... if you look at the DVD encryption, I wouldn\'t even call it \"encryption\" anymore when based on today\'s standards.  It isn\'t a variable decryption key... it\'s only a single static (never changing) key that all DVD players have hardcoded into their program... similar to the RealPlayer \"hand shaking\" key from many years ago?

So... what is encryption?

Is it wise to make a law based on such a loose term?  Either it won\'t be held up in court very well or else the RIAA might try to \"bleed\" it into other areas to increase their power?  Would they make Open-Office illegal becasue it \"cracks\" the \"Microsoft Word\" encryption?

Quote
Finally, you DO have the right to backup a DVD (as per Sony vs Universal), but you do NOT have the right to decrypt it. The 1st right is useless without the 2nd.


Everytime I play a DVD using a DVD player, I\'m \"decrypting\" it on the fly.  So.. it\'s okay to \"decrypt\" it.. just not to save that data anywhere?  It\'s okay for the \"decrypted\" data to be in memory, but not on the harddrive?  Most players today read ahead in the file and decrypt parts of the video a few seconds before they are actually used.  With swap files, how do you know that that information never touches the harddrive?... expecially if I rewind from my current position, and the data decrypted never actually gets used.  Windows will see that that memory space hasn\'t been used for a while and will automatically put it on the harddrive in the swap file.

Saying that we can\'t decrypt files is as ridiculous as saying that we can\'t download pictures from a website.  By simply viewing a site, the site\'s pictures are already stored on your computer in your cache directory (even the Zaurus has one)... so how can they say that downloading pictures is illegal without making going to a website illegal?  Likewise, how can they make decrypting a file illegal without making the playing of an encrypted file illegal?

All this does it strengthen the point that laws against copyright infringement are not sound.  They aren\'t logical.  The whole premise of the copyright with today\'s technology is an oxymoron.  It conflicts with common sense.  The old copyright should go away and a new one should replace it.  The new one would provide for the artists (perhaps not the record label, though...  :twisted: ) to get paid, while also allowing the technology to work as designed and let the information flow freely.

Quote
a tool or device whose primary use was to aid in circumventing protection of a copyrighted work.  


A toast to all of those circumventing protection software!  

Quote
However, what I think is truely chilling, is that the website owners claimed a defense based on the 1st amendment (or freedom of speech), where they had a right to post links to information on DeCSS. The judge struck this down as a defense. This is where I thought they would have had the greatest defense... Perhaps they would have been more successful under the 9th circuit (a much more liberal district).  

Its scary where our country is heading.


Yes, that\'s very scary.  1st ammendment is, I think, exactly what all of this is all about.  Note this it is the \"First Ammendment\", and NOT the 2nd, 3rd, or 9th ammendment... It was the most important thing our forefathers could think of as a law.  The freedom of information, verbal, visual, written or otherwise.  The modern copyright in its very nature wishes to constrict the 1st ammendment.  The fact that the 1st ammendment wasn\'t upheld in court here only shows how the corporate world (especially the RIAA) has de-emphasized it, in favor of corporate greed.  Our rights are sliping away as corporations find more \"legal\" ways to steal our money.

The original concept of copyright (as corrupt as it was) DIDN\'T infringe the 1st ammendment as much as today.  It was ONLY directed at businesses and selling.  Free exchange was honored, as it should be today.

\"Fair Use\"... why does it need to be spelled out?  Isn\'t is clear as a basic freedom?  ...or have people been \"brainwashed\" by the RIAA for too long.  It cracks me up to hear people calling \"copyright infingement\" stealing, especially when nothing is missing.  \"Yes, officer, I was robbed.  They took everything in my house.  .. *pause* ... well, yes, I know that you can still see everything here, but you have to believe me that they STOLE everything in my house\".  I think some people are confusing \"Cut-And-Paste\" with \"Copy-And-Paste\".  Wake up from your slumber... realize the aweful state our laws are in.  REalize the corruption that is growing all around us... we need to be more consious of this and make our elected officials more consious of this.  They need to do a better job of representing the people.

In Iraq some people were scared to speak publically against the regime for fear of torture and death (or decapitation).  Speaking to americans: We \"think\" we are free, but we are under a similar tyranical rule in our homeland.  It is just as devious and sneaky.  Some people here are scared to make certain information public (like the bits that comprise the DIVX video of a movie) for fear of the RIAA regime and what they can do to us.  Thankfully they can\'t kill us... but I do see a lot of torture out there.

Do any other nations want to volunteer to invade the USA, destroy the greedy corporate regimes (especially the RIAA) and leave us with as truly \"free\" nation?
Tony Olsen
Ferris@Myself.Com
Resume
Zaurus SL-C860 QTopia
2 GB Static CF
1 GB MMC (although it isn't working yet)
My Quest: To get an x86 emulator working on my Zaurus and to have my Zaurus replace my laptop as my MAIN computer
Publically available Videos for the default Zaurus SL-C860 video player

omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 626
    • View Profile
    • http://
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2004, 11:16:50 am »
Hi Tony, have you got your DVD\'s ] DIVX ] Zaurus yet? I give a short guide in one of the other forums using flaskmpeg
Gorgeous C860, 256 Sandisk SD, 1Gig Pretec 40x CF, PDAIR leather case & the really cool retractable iPDA USB sync/charge cable. Powered by PDAXROM BETA 1.

My wish - to have a Command & Conquer style game on my Z! (FREECNC!!!) Simcity 2000 would also be great.

DrWowe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
    • View Profile
    • http://
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2004, 11:18:55 am »
Quote
pervert that law and say that VCDs are \"encrypted\" since they\'re \"encoded\"
 

Quoting from the DMCA, it gives legal protection to a \"technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title\".  So far, that\'s been interpreted as a matter of intent by the courts.  Basically, anything that is intended as an access control device has been treated as applicable to the DMCA, regardless of how stupid or easily broken it is.  I don\'t think that interpretation could be streched to apply to a standard encoding.  But who knows what those lawyers will try.  


Quote
One of the things the server asks for from the player in a secret key to verify the player is authentic.  This key was just a simple static string, but the video wasn\'t available without it.  Does this qualify as encryption?


The (dumb) Judge said it did qualify when they sued that Streambox VCR company.  They also said the dumbass \"copy bit\" was protected by the DMCA.  Grrr...

Quote
Is it wise to make a law based on such a loose term?


Most technically knowledgable people think the answer is no...  But the people charged with enforcing it are either NOT knowledgable about such matters, or have a vested interested in making copyright protection as strong as possible.  It certainly has been held up in court up until now, althought there have been a few recent exceptions (such as the garage door opener case) which might indicate the tide is changing.

Quote
Everytime I play a DVD using a DVD player, I\'m \"decrypting\" it on the fly.


The theory here is that YOU are not decrypting, but rather the DVD player , which has licensed the decryption code, is doing the decrypting.  See the difference?  YOU have no rights to the data at all.  Under this interpretation, even non-licenced DVD players (which don\'t make copies) are illegal.  

(note: I\'m not saying Javab0y is wrong, he seems to know what he\'s talking about, but this is certainly the theory that Hollywood will put forth if the matter comes to court again.)

Quote
With swap files, how do you know that that information never touches the harddrive?


Yup, you\'ve hit the nail on the head.  The law takes a very layman\'s common sense view of technology that invariably misses many of the nuances of the way things really work.  It\'s a problem that\'s going to become more and more pronounced as our society becomes increasingly technological.  The good news is that the layman\'s view of technology invariably becomes more sophisticated as people\'s understanding catches up.  It\'s just a VERY slow process, because people don\'t want to learn any more than they have to, but eventually they do have to.


Quote
The original concept of copyright (as corrupt as it was) DIDN\'T infringe the 1st ammendment as much as today.  It was ONLY directed at businesses and selling.  Free exchange was honored, as it should be today.



Fortunately, there are well regarded people like Larry Lessig on the other side of the debate.  Things may actually get better in our lifetimes.  Copyright was never such a contentious point to the average person until computers brought the cost of copying down the point where anyone could do it trivially and routinely.  The entertainment industry got a big headstart in this war because they were busy fretting and lobbying before anyone on the other side really realized how important this legal battle would turn out.  Now that copyright has started to enter the public\'s awareness, things could start changing.  The law is just struggling to catch up with the new reality.

omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 626
    • View Profile
    • http://
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2004, 11:29:39 am »
Hi Tony, have you got your DVD\'s ] DIVX ] Zaurus yet? I give a short guide in one of the other forums using flaskmpeg
Gorgeous C860, 256 Sandisk SD, 1Gig Pretec 40x CF, PDAIR leather case & the really cool retractable iPDA USB sync/charge cable. Powered by PDAXROM BETA 1.

My wish - to have a Command & Conquer style game on my Z! (FREECNC!!!) Simcity 2000 would also be great.

TonyOlsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
    • http://www.userdimensions.com/Tony/Resume.html
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2004, 11:30:32 am »
Quote
Hi Tony, have you got your DVD\'s ] DIVX ] Zaurus yet? I give a short guide in one of the other forums using flaskmpeg


Yes, I got the WMV option (using Windows Media Encoder) working.  In your post you mentioned that I could use Divx 5.3.  I have Dr. Divx and tried it, but when I played it (using TkcPlayer) some frames skipped and the audio and video quickly came out of allignment.

Does MPlayer do a better job at this?  Also, can I assume the MPlayer and MediaPlayer are 2 separate apps?

Thanks.
Tony Olsen
Ferris@Myself.Com
Resume
Zaurus SL-C860 QTopia
2 GB Static CF
1 GB MMC (although it isn't working yet)
My Quest: To get an x86 emulator working on my Zaurus and to have my Zaurus replace my laptop as my MAIN computer
Publically available Videos for the default Zaurus SL-C860 video player

TonyOlsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
    • http://www.userdimensions.com/Tony/Resume.html
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2004, 11:39:47 am »
Quote
The theory here is that YOU are not decrypting, but rather the DVD player , which has licensed the decryption code, is doing the decrypting. See the difference? YOU have no rights to the data at all. Under this interpretation, even non-licenced DVD players (which don\'t make copies) are illegal.  


But in truth \"I\" NEVER decrypt the data... it is ALWAYS the software.  DecSS (spelling?) is the same thing... If I run it I don\'t decrypt it anymore than the player decrypts it.  I don\'t understand how that distinction can be upheld.

Quote
It\'s a problem that\'s going to become more and more pronounced as our society becomes increasingly technological. The good news is that the layman\'s view of technology invariably becomes more sophisticated as people\'s understanding catches up. It\'s just a VERY slow process, because people don\'t want to learn any more than they have to, but eventually they do have to.  


So... the hope here is that the copyright laws, and RIAA\'s evil reign, will eventually come to a close... depending on how fast the general public becomes educated.  Why is it that the people in power often end up being the most corrupt and/or unintellegent of the population?  (Note, I like what Bush is doing, but many in congress, etc, fall under this).

Quote
The law is just struggling to catch up with the new reality.


Cheers to this new \"Reality\"!
Tony Olsen
Ferris@Myself.Com
Resume
Zaurus SL-C860 QTopia
2 GB Static CF
1 GB MMC (although it isn't working yet)
My Quest: To get an x86 emulator working on my Zaurus and to have my Zaurus replace my laptop as my MAIN computer
Publically available Videos for the default Zaurus SL-C860 video player

DrWowe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
    • View Profile
    • http://
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2004, 11:58:53 am »
Quote
But in truth \"I\" NEVER decrypt the data... it is ALWAYS the software.  DecSS (spelling?) is the same thing... If I run it I don\'t decrypt it anymore than the player decrypts it.  I don\'t understand how that distinction can be upheld.


The distinction is between you using an \"authorized\" decryption device, vs an unauthorized one.  As a matter of common sense, the distinction between plopping a DVD into computer and starting up Cyberlink vs. running DVD Decrypter is quite obvious.  One is authorized, the other isn\'t.  Now, the distinction between Cyberlink and something like Mplayer or Xine isn\'t quite as obvious (in a Joe Sixpack sitting on the jury kind of way), but Hollywood\'s lawyer will inform them that those too are unauthorized.  And Joe Sixpack may squirm a little bit (if he\'s paying attention) and wonder why this \"authorization\" is do darn important when you just want to watch your own DVD on your own computer.  But I\'m digressing...

Quote
So... the hope here is that the copyright laws, and RIAA\'s evil reign, will eventually come to a close... depending on how fast the general public becomes educated.  Why is it that the people in power often end up being the most corrupt and/or unintellegent of the population? (Note, I like what Bush is doing, but many in congress, etc, fall under this).


Most people don\'t care about most things.  There\'s only so many hours of the day, and most of them are spent making money, eating, drinking beer, and sleeping, and a few other pleasurable activities.  That doesn\'t leave much time for political activism.  But politicians definately care about things that the people care about.  It\'s when the public\'s back is turned that they get away with all kinds of crap.

Fortunately, p2p networks have already gotten hundreds of millions of people to care about copyright issues.  Kazaa sucks, but lets thank them anyway for this.  

Quote
Cheers to this new \"Reality\"!


I\'ll drink to that!

TonyOlsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
    • http://www.userdimensions.com/Tony/Resume.html
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2004, 12:07:12 pm »
One of my friends used to work at a Japanese manufacturing plant in the US.  They would have a need for a number of machine of a certain type.  If they needed 50 machines, they would buy 5 and then they would dismantle them, figure out how they were made, and then build the rest themselves.  What they did was perfectly legal and the law couldn\'t touch them... as long as they never sold those machines.  Copying = Legal.  And yet, ironically, only the information industry seems to not understand this.

Another hypothetical example.  Pretend we had replicators like in Star Trek... is it legal for me to replicate a part manufactured by another company?  Yes... as long as I don\'t sell it, or sell a product which uses it.  We may laugh at this example now, but I\'m sure people 30 years ago didn\'t think that we could \"Copy\" entire movies with the ease that we do today, and send them to our friends in foreign countries.  Let\'s learn from this terrbile example and teach our children, so that the next generation won\'t make the mistakes we made and we\'ll fight against bad laws before they become ingrained in our society and even our very culture.

Patents mean that you can\'t make and sell something someone else invented... but there\'s nothing wrong/illegal with making it... only with selling it without permission.  Copyrights and Patents are business-based laws.  They don\'t apply to areas where there isn\'t any money exchanged, and therefor no business.  If I make McDonalds Big Macs for my kids at home... and we eat them each week... can McDonalds throw us in prison?.. Me for making a BigMac, or my children for eating it?  How about if I started making BigMacs for everyone in the world?  I would use my transporter technology to zap it to any location that wanted it?  How about if I opened a restaraunt where I didn\'t charge any money (everything was free) and I made BigMacs?

Where money isn\'t involved, the coprights and patents don\'t apply.  Hence... P2P isn\'t illegal.

Oh... and the secret \"special sauce\" in a big mac is only \"thousand island dressing\".  Don\'t mind me... I\'m just exercising my rights under the 1st ammendment to freedom of exchange of information.  
Tony Olsen
Ferris@Myself.Com
Resume
Zaurus SL-C860 QTopia
2 GB Static CF
1 GB MMC (although it isn't working yet)
My Quest: To get an x86 emulator working on my Zaurus and to have my Zaurus replace my laptop as my MAIN computer
Publically available Videos for the default Zaurus SL-C860 video player

TonyOlsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
    • http://www.userdimensions.com/Tony/Resume.html
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2004, 12:12:17 pm »
Quote
The distinction is between you using an \"authorized\" decryption device, vs an unauthorized one. As a matter of common sense, the distinction between plopping a DVD into computer and starting up Cyberlink vs. running DVD Decrypter is quite obvious. One is authorized, the other isn\'t. Now, the distinction between Cyberlink and something like Mplayer or Xine isn\'t quite as obvious (in a Joe Sixpack sitting on the jury kind of way), but Hollywood\'s lawyer will inform them that those too are unauthorized. And Joe Sixpack may squirm a little bit (if he\'s paying attention) and wonder why this \"authorization\" is do darn important when you just want to watch your own DVD on your own computer. But I\'m digressing...  


Great point!
Tony Olsen
Ferris@Myself.Com
Resume
Zaurus SL-C860 QTopia
2 GB Static CF
1 GB MMC (although it isn't working yet)
My Quest: To get an x86 emulator working on my Zaurus and to have my Zaurus replace my laptop as my MAIN computer
Publically available Videos for the default Zaurus SL-C860 video player

TonyOlsen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
    • View Profile
    • http://www.userdimensions.com/Tony/Resume.html
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2004, 06:28:37 pm »
Question: When when the RIAA sues someone is there anyway for that person (assuming he is like most people and can\'t afford the lawyers needed to stand up against the masses of RIAA lawyers) to get the court to appoint an appropriate (knowledgeable) lawyer for that person\'s defense?... and not have that person have to pay for the mess?

Or... is there a way to have the court force the RIAA to pay a certain fraction of what they are paying for the defendant to hire a lawyer (or lawyers) to defend himself?

Is there anyway to protect yourself from corporate musseling and bullying?  ...or are we typical poor americans going to be at the mercy of those who can hire dozens of layers to harrass us?  Does the court system offer anything to balance this out?

If not... then why not?  Is there anything in the works to change this?

Also... how much do you think the RIAA has to pay for each lawsuit?  Are they making a profit off of this, or is it just a public exhibition to scare the populace into submission?
Tony Olsen
Ferris@Myself.Com
Resume
Zaurus SL-C860 QTopia
2 GB Static CF
1 GB MMC (although it isn't working yet)
My Quest: To get an x86 emulator working on my Zaurus and to have my Zaurus replace my laptop as my MAIN computer
Publically available Videos for the default Zaurus SL-C860 video player

javab0y

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2004, 01:50:17 am »
Quote
Another hypothetical example. Pretend we had replicators like in Star Trek... is it legal for me to replicate a part manufactured by another company? Yes... as long as I don\'t sell it, or sell a product which uses it.


No.  You are half right.  Under the DMCA, you are legally allowed to re-engineer technology to understand how it works.  However, you may not A) distribute the technology either commercially or non-commercially to the public.  You may not disclose its \"secrets\" to the public.   However, there is a loophole.  If you can somehow legally get yourself to be classified as a library or educational facility, you can then have additional \"freedoms\" to istibute information.

Quote
Question: When when the RIAA sues someone is there anyway for that person (assuming he is like most people and can\'t afford the lawyers needed to stand up against the masses of RIAA lawyers) to get the court to appoint an appropriate (knowledgeable) lawyer for that person\'s defense?... and not have that person have to pay for the mess?  


No...you are only appointed legal counsel under the government\'s tab if you meet the following criteria:

A) It is a criminal case (i.e. USA vs. YOU - this is not a good place to be).

AND

 You clearly cannot afford a lawyer.  The government will get its bean counters to get an analysis of your financial situation (house/car/bank accounts) and assess your ability to pay for legal counsel.  They may, at thier discretion pay for the entire bill, pay a portion of the bill, or hit you with a judgement for the legal costs at the end of your trial.

Quote
Is there anyway to protect yourself from corporate musseling and bullying? ...or are we typical poor americans going to be at the mercy of those who can hire dozens of layers to harrass us? Does the court system offer anything to balance this out?  


Yes   But you ned to be proactive rather than reactive.  The key that they look at is how many assets do you have and is it worthwhile to sue and get a judgement on you.  Step 1) Go into business for yourself (if you are in computers...consult....the money is better). If they attach a judgement against you, they will go to your employer to garnish your wages.  Now since YOU are your employer...you can fire yourself and rehire yourself as a vounteer.  Then hire your wife/Mom/Dad/Kids and give them the paycheck.  BAM...you have all of a sudden become a poor person with no income...and no ability to garnish your wages...because you do not make anything.  Having a wife is best because she becomes the employee and the income kind of flows right back into your pocket without any tax ramifications.  Second...any assets you have you want to get rid of.  You need to do this while the waters are calm...ie. no current legal issues or even threat of someone coming after you, otherwise a judge can state \"fraudulent conveyence\" and open a direct path to your assets..  You bury your assets in something called a Family Limited Partnership or FLIP.  This includes your house, stocks, bonds, cash, etc.  When a creditor comes after you, they can get something called a charging order against your portion of a FLIP.  But since you are a partner, you do not need to release the asset for distribution (you can continue using the assets in the good name of the partnership).  Creditors don\'t normally like this because if they get a charging order, they have to pay the property taxes and other fees for the portion they \"own\".  Its a losing proposition for them...so they usually walk away when your assets are buried.  In addition, I believe there is a Federal law that says there is a 20 year statute of limitations for a charging order to collect payment.  After 20 years, its all yours again   The downside is the collection agency will likely bug the heck out of you...so read up on the Federal Debt Collection Act and read how to make the collectors leave you alone.

Hey...I never said it was going to be easy...but its definately doable

Quote
If not... then why not? Is there anything in the works to change this?  


Unfortunately there is nothing in the works to change this just yet.  However, with DirecTV, the MPAA, and the RIAA carpet bombing the world, I suspect someone in congress will put the brakes on this.  It needs more public outcry.  The key is we have a f**ed up legal system here.  Anyone can sue anyone else with no recourse and for no reason.  In certain european countries (like France I believe), if you sue someone and you lose, you have to pay for all of thier legal fees and costs.  It kind of makes people think twice before suing someone and ensures that the case is a slam dunk.  We need this kind of a system in America, but it will be a long time before that happens since lobbyists will continue to pump $$ into politicians pockets to prevent this type of legislation.

Quote
Also... how much do you think the RIAA has to pay for each lawsuit? Are they making a profit off of this, or is it just a public exhibition to scare the populace into submission?


From what I recall, its between 100.00-150.00 to file.  They try to lump as many people in a single suit to keep the filing costs down.  Yes I suspect they are making a profit off of this.  I believe it was documented that DirecTV was making a mint off of thier legal initiatives.  I do believe that on the RIAA its not done from a profit motive, but a controlling motive (public exhibition).  They are trying to flex thier muscle and show who is in charge.  I think if most folks do not settle and fight back (malicious litigation etc), the US court system will begin showing little tolerance for these methods of intimidation.  If you read up on DirectV, you will find that several judges just started throwing out cases left and right with stinging biradements toward DirecTV.

javab0y

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2004, 02:03:29 am »
Quote
The distinction is between you using an \"authorized\" decryption device, vs an unauthorized one. As a matter of common sense, the distinction between plopping a DVD into computer and starting up Cyberlink vs. running DVD Decrypter is quite obvious. One is authorized, the other isn\'t. Now, the distinction between Cyberlink and something like Mplayer or Xine isn\'t quite as obvious (in a Joe Sixpack sitting on the jury kind of way), but Hollywood\'s lawyer will inform them that those too are unauthorized. And Joe Sixpack may squirm a little bit (if he\'s paying attention) and wonder why this \"authorization\" is do darn important when you just want to watch your own DVD on your own computer. But I\'m digressing...  


Oh yes...this is a good point.  Although you may pass muster under the DMCA and claim fair use...they may attempt to come back at you with some of the \"fraudulent or unauthorized devices\" statutes.  They can claim wiretap violations, posession of an un-authorized access device, etc.  Yes its a HUGE stretch, but its been done before.  It comes down to how aggressive a US Attorney wants to be, how stupid the judge is in technology, and how stupid the probation office is for accepting \"high damages\" (like 150K per downloaded song or movie) which could put you in prison for a long time under the Federal Sentencing Guidelines, all for downloading \"Finding Nemo\" or the new Brittney Spears song.

Hehe I can see it now...

Bubba: \"I\'m in for rape and carrying 100 lbs of smack accross the border.  I got 8 years.  Hey...what you in for?\"

You: \"I\'m in for 10 years.  I downloaded Snow White through Kaazaa.\"

Inuyasha

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
    • http://www.duelmonsters.ca/
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2004, 02:32:35 am »
Ok, this might be a long reply once I\'m finished (alot to discuss), but I\'ll take it slowly with quotes.

Quote
Again, unfortunately, US code clearly states that one cannot distribute/traffic in a tool or device whose primary use is to circumvent protections. Therefore they had a tough battle...as Fair Use did not apply here.

Interesting, I don\'t think alot of countries have these sort of restrictions. I guess that\'s why Debian has a non-US branch. Keep all the \"illegal\" stuff over there. Up here (Canada), We don\'t have to worry about US legal code, the DMCA or the RIAA. Yes, we can LEGALLY share music.  But thats a different argument.

Quote
Under the DMCA, you are legally allowed to re-engineer technology to understand how it works. However, you may not A) distribute the technology either commercially or non-commercially to the public.  You may not disclose its \"secrets\" to the public. However, there is a loophole. If you can somehow legally get yourself to be classified as a library or educational facility, you can then have additional \"freedoms\" to istibute information.

Interesting idea, do you have any ideas as to how one can be classified as an \"educational institute\"? Maybe make the decryption/re-engineering a school project (for those of us in high school/university). Anyone have any other ideas?

Quote
Hey...I never said it was going to be easy...but its definately doable  

Simpler solution: move somewhere without all these laws. Canada is less restrictive, but is not behind the US technology-wise. Or maybe Australia, or somewhere in Europe. You\'d get less strict laws, and just as good a living condidtions. Of course moving isn\'t an option for everyone.

Quote
Also... how much do you think the RIAA has to pay for each lawsuit? Are they making a profit off of this, or is it just a public exhibition to scare the populace into submission?

Chances are it\'s as simple as this: it\'s profitable, so they keep on doing it. If they got no profit, do you really think they\'d do it with so much... Vigor?

Quote
One of my friends used to work at a Japanese manufacturing plant in the US. They would have a need for a number of machine of a certain type. If they needed 50 machines, they would buy 5 and then they would dismantle them, figure out how they were made, and then build the rest themselves. What they did was perfectly legal and the law couldn\'t touch them... as long as they never sold those machines. Copying = Legal. And yet, ironically, only the information industry seems to not understand this.

It\'s a good point, but somewhat invalid in the current topic of decryption software, etc. The point is, tearing something apart you physically own, is completly different from simply having a license to use it. The other flaw... They were seeing how to build them, copying them, however, what decryption technology is often used to do is to tear something apart, only to rebuild it slightly differently (a different fomat), not a direct copy, it\'s a little different.

Quote
Oh... and the secret \"special sauce\" in a big mac is only \"thousand island dressing\". Don\'t mind me... I\'m just exercising my rights under the 1st ammendment to freedom of exchange of information.

*Files away under misc. company secrets* And yes, you are free to distribute that, since technically you didn\'t decrypt a Big Mac and study the sauce to see what it was, it was just simple deduction/tasting. I\'m not sure, but there may be a difference between tearing something apart to see how it works, and making something new, matching the old thing (i.e. decryption libraries that are from trial-and-error, rather than reverse engineering).

Quote
Now, the distinction between Cyberlink and something like Mplayer or Xine isn\'t quite as obvious (in a Joe Sixpack sitting on the jury kind of way), but Hollywood\'s lawyer will inform them that those too are unauthorized.

Because, to put it simply, they aren\'t. How many DVD players do you know of that are free? Excluding the ones that use libcss, libdvdcss or DeCSS, there are not any, because they have to pay for a licence to use the decryption software in their software

Quote
ut in truth \"I\" NEVER decrypt the data... it is ALWAYS the software. DecSS (spelling?) is the same thing... If I run it I don\'t decrypt it anymore than the player decrypts it. I don\'t understand how that distinction can be upheld.

I don\'t think it\'s as simple as just an \"I-didn\'t-do-it,-DeCSS-did\". I think it\'s more of a problem of you controlling it. You TOLD it to decrypt that DVD, the same way you TOLD your DVD player to decrypt it. The problem is, the DVD player is legal, and cost you (indirectly) for a license to decrypt those DVDs. Unfortunatly, DeCSS cost you nothing and is not legal.


I\'ll stop there, it\'s getting late and I should get some sleep tonight.

Unfortunatly, in the eyes of the law, DMCA and RIAA (in the US at least ), all these tools are illegal and can land you with fines and *maybe* jail time. But of course, the question is, how do they know you did it? They can\'t just do random hard drive checks (as that\'s either cracking (illegal), or break-and-enter (also illegal)), so as long as you don\'t advertise the fact you do this sort of thing (i.e. re-encoding movies over the internet for Z users), you shouldn\'t land in trouble.
-Justin

Zaurus SL-5600
PXA250
Mildly customized 1.32 Sharp ROM
Custom (cache workaround disabled only) zImage
256 MB Transcend Compact Flash, 64 MB Transcend MMC
Linksys WCF12 WiFi Card
Palm Tungsten T Stylus

PowerBook 12" G4 1 Ghz/1.25 GB RAM/80 GB HD/32 MB GeForce FX Go5200
OS X 10.3.4

Pentium II 417 Mhz/320 MB RAM/2x 20 GB HD/64 MB ATI Radeon 7500
Debian Sid

omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 626
    • View Profile
    • http://
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2004, 05:54:35 am »
Tony, i used Mplayer to play back the divx stuff on my Z using  Kino2 as the frontend.  Yes, to my knowledge the mediaplayer and mplayer are seperate. I think mediaplayer is OPIE?
Gorgeous C860, 256 Sandisk SD, 1Gig Pretec 40x CF, PDAIR leather case & the really cool retractable iPDA USB sync/charge cable. Powered by PDAXROM BETA 1.

My wish - to have a Command & Conquer style game on my Z! (FREECNC!!!) Simcity 2000 would also be great.

javab0y

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Encoding Video for Zaurus...
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2004, 09:59:16 am »
Quote
nteresting, I don\'t think alot of countries have these sort of restrictions. I guess that\'s why Debian has a non-US branch. Keep all the \"illegal\" stuff over there. Up here (Canada), We don\'t have to worry about US legal code, the DMCA or the RIAA. Yes, we can LEGALLY share music.  But thats a different argument.


Yes...legal in Canada...but you are not exempt from the DMCA or other title 17 violations.  God forbid an American downloads your music (such as an undercover FBI or SS agent)...then you are in deep doo-doo.  You won\'t be traveling to the USA anymore unless you are looking to get locked up.  The long arm of Ashcroft\'s arm appears to extend accross our borders.

See here: http://www.cybercrime.gov/griffithsIndict.htm