Author Topic: Keep Pdaxrom Alive  (Read 37341 times)

Laze

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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2005, 02:54:41 am »
Hardware should be sent to:
Mikkel Skovgaard Soerensen
Danmarksgade 96, 4 th
9000 Aalborg
Denmark
C760 running pdaXrom lastest ;-)
SL5500 Running Cacko Qtopia
512 MB SD Card, 128 MB CF Card, Prism2 CF Wlan.

Always visit http://www.pdaXrom.org for latest news.

sds

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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2005, 07:29:41 am »
Laze,

I see you submitted a Project Registration Inquiry to Sourceforge a year ago, but it was closed (why?) and I could not find any discussion about it on the forums.
So my question is: why not use the ready infrastructure at Sourceforge or  Berlioz or any other site specifically created for development of open source?
Why not open a pdaXrom project there with you (and Sash) as admin?

I see these specific advantages for pdaXrom:
  • Web site structure, downloads, feature request/bug tracking are automatically and profesionally taken care of so plenty manual work and financial charges are spared.
  • The source code repository is public, so anybody at any time can see what exactly is worked on at the moment. Access rights can be configured, so permanent contributors may easily participate. (I personally am thinking of writing some programs, but I am not doing it because the need to publish the code, version it and pack it takes too much time and additional effort on my own).
  • More people, who already said they want can get involved and distribute the load (Zumi, maxg, omro etc.) -- one responsible for the docs or content of the web site, another for maintaining the Bugzilla database (updating status, removing duplicates, editing etc), still another for releases etc.
  • Donations are taken care of, and they may be for a specific person/task -- as cattin and ikm suggest.
  • The whole infrastructure gives automatically enough information about the current status of the project, so there is no need to write separate documents for it. In addition, any developer can maintain his own Diary at the site -- just as you and jerrybme propose. Specific questions could be answered here at the Forum just as now or, if very specialized -- in a specific mailing list.
I see one possible drawback -- financing through banners/google syndication would not be possible. However, will we need that at all then?

The current Forum here at OESF may be used as the official forum. The current site at pdaXrom.org may still continue to exist or be served via VHOST (that is, all requests to pdaXrom.org are forwarded to the sourceforge site).

I am not sure the cross-compile SDK might be so easily set up at Sourceforge (although certainly possible), but the transfer of anything else should not take more than a week. However, after an initial phase of transformation, adding new content/code will take much less time and will be distributed -- so actually you and Sash will have much less to do about tedious, uninteresting tasks, and much more time for interesting for you topics.

The whole idea is in no way a new one and many Zaurus-related projects (XQT-Server, OZ etc) are using it since long ago successfully.
So, why not? I might be missing something very important -- what is it?

Rgs,
--
Svetlin
C3100 pdaXrom

allanjard

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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2005, 09:41:10 am »
Hi,

I'm definitely up for sending money to you via paypal, however I very much agree with the others here. A developer blog so we could see what was going on would be wonderful.

A

omro

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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2005, 10:28:03 am »
Will we, as paying contributors, be able to have a say in the steering of pdaXrom? I don't wish to say bad things about the other roms, cause some of them are seriously impressive, but they're always more focussed on what the developer wants on the rom, rather than what the user wants on the rom.

If you says to us that those who regularly contribute a monthly subscription fee can be on a steering committee of sorts to be involved in choices like and assigning priority too

which bugs need to be fixed,
which features need to be added,
which apps need to be ported,
etc

I think that would encourage me to contribute regularly, because I would know I was having my needs catered for.

You developers are doing a great job, but if you want your userbase to support you, unlike some of the other roms, you really need to incorporate user feedback more readily, ok it will mean spending time doing things you might not exactly want to do, but it will also finance you doing the things you do want to do.

Who else agrees with this?
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gyver

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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2005, 12:31:11 pm »
Quote
You developers are doing a great job, but if you want your userbase to support you, unlike some of the other roms, you really need to incorporate user feedback more readily, ok it will mean spending time doing things you might not exactly want to do, but it will also finance you doing the things you do want to do.

Who else agrees with this?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92168\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Me!
A small webapp where contributing users can add requests, the developpers can price them and the users can split their contributions (set by the devs when the money is received) amongs requests would be ideal.

ThirtyOne

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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2005, 12:44:37 pm »
A ROM is not just the sum of a bunch of individual requests.  The developers should have flexibility in how the ROM develops.

I would propose two ways to contribute:

- A general contribution with the ability to indicate what features are a priority to you

- A bounty system where users commit that if certain features are implemented - by the core team or others - they will pay out the bounty.

scheck.r

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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2005, 01:19:49 pm »
All people who like PdaXrom have to donate regularly. I mean look at how fast development has gone on PdaXrom, the resulting ROM is really promising. We have a good team of talented, passionate and friendly developpers. The Z's life-time is so short before we buy a new one. We absolutely need full time developpers.

I agree with Omro to have more User centric packages instead of developper centric as we don't spend money for software contrary to PocketPC and Palm. Right now there are not a lot of user centric packages in the feed.

However we don't need a lot. I prefer not a lot of packages but very good ones. I have to say that the available user centric packages are well chosen so far. For example ROX file manager is the best user friendly-full-featured file manager I have ever seen in all other ROMS even better than TreeexplorerQT Plus edition which costs $17, same goes for abiword, gnumeric, gQview, sylpheed,...When I think that I spent $30 for TextMaker on SharpROM (what a mistake, doesn't install well, interface ugly and unituitive, open file manager unuseable, memory hungry, ...)

On the other hand, these great apps are very powerful and as a consequence I also want my money spent for graphic acceleration, speed in general, better hardware support for various CF/USB devices, and this is the hardest/longest/trickiest part.

I trust the PdaXrom team to do a very good job with our money.
SL-C1000 from PriceJapan(cheap and very fast shipping) with EA-70 power adapter, iRiver USB Host cable, PDAIR case, pentopia stylus, ultra clear screen-protector from shop.brando.com.hk only $3 for shipping worldwide
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rebski

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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2005, 01:45:24 pm »
My present priority is for Cacko ROM for the C1000 but I love to watch progress on the PdaXrom. So much so that I donated about 6 months ago.

Count me in on contributions, the simplest proposal in the thread was for $20 now and $10 a month for 6 months.  This is more than sashz requested but is fine by me.

Are we up for this?

Laze

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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2005, 02:06:34 pm »
Hey quick status update... Im spending my one week holliday(to much regret of my girlfriend) working on the new site and i can promise that it will be finished within the end of this week. Mostly all your requested features will be included - i think this will be one the biggest thing happing for the pdaXrom for a long time - except big releases of course.

So please be patient for a couple of days and then we start optimizing and discussing it - then i will start a thread for input/feedback and hunt for new co-webmasters.

Until then please don't IM/PM/E-mails me to death i know there is a lot of people willing to help and you will get your chance very soon.

Regarding SF hosting etc. i have tried many different things - i prefer having my own hardware and full control.
C760 running pdaXrom lastest ;-)
SL5500 Running Cacko Qtopia
512 MB SD Card, 128 MB CF Card, Prism2 CF Wlan.

Always visit http://www.pdaXrom.org for latest news.

omro

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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2005, 03:45:53 am »
Quote
I agree with Omro to have more User centric packages instead of developper centric as we don't spend money for software contrary to PocketPC and Palm. Right now there are not a lot of user centric packages in the feed.

However we don't need a lot. I prefer not a lot of packages but very good ones. I have to say that the available user centric packages are well chosen so far. For example ROX file manager is the best user friendly-full-featured file manager I have ever seen in all other ROMS even better than TreeexplorerQT Plus edition which costs $17, same goes for abiword, gnumeric, gQview, sylpheed,...When I think that I spent $30 for TextMaker on SharpROM (what a mistake, doesn't install well, interface ugly and unituitive, open file manager unuseable, memory hungry, ...)

On the other hand, these great apps are very powerful and as a consequence I also want my money spent for graphic acceleration, speed in general, better hardware support for various CF/USB devices, and this is the hardest/longest/trickiest part.

I trust the PdaXrom team to do a very good job with our money.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

I totally agree with this. To make the Rom more "user friendly" wouldn't really take that much. If there was a user group, a steering committee of users who worked out the core apps they needed and core things that would make the rom more user centric, then once that was done, the developers could do the things they wanted.

You could even split the rom into a pdaXrom (user version) pdaXrom (developer version).

Lots of distributions have two variants, one more for general people and one more for power users.

The goal of pdaXrom should be to widen the user base by making it as user friendly as possible. And no offence to the developers, you need user feedback and user involvement, we know what we want and we know what we want to see. We can more easily tell you the core apps and features we need to make this amazing rom, even more so.

It's almost there, really it is. Just let us guide you, take the time to hear us and you'll see our appreciation in terms of contributions and support and cheerleading and your userbase will grow.

This is not a threat, just a fact, if you don't pay attention to us, this support will probably wane very quickly if people think "why bother giving these guys money? They don't listen."
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 03:48:39 am by omro »
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adf

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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2005, 04:22:33 am »
The developers seem to be doing very nicely so far.  But if it is a simple matter of getting more people to compile and test more apps....
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Laze

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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2005, 04:27:04 am »
When we get around to it we will be releasing a prepacked version and stripped down version out any preinstalled apps (might not even have a window manager). We don't need no comitee to tell us what to do - if you need a certain program just compile it. Might sound a bit harsh but with the big work load on our shoulders already we don't need people crying for a certain game - just look at some of the forum posts lately.

This can be handled by anybody with a bit of programming skills... We just want to make a good and solid "base" for everything else.
C760 running pdaXrom lastest ;-)
SL5500 Running Cacko Qtopia
512 MB SD Card, 128 MB CF Card, Prism2 CF Wlan.

Always visit http://www.pdaXrom.org for latest news.

omro

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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2005, 04:42:47 am »
Quote
When we get around to it we will be releasing a prepacked version and stripped down version out any preinstalled apps (might not even have a window manager). We don't need no comitee to tell us what to do - if you need a certain program just compile it. Might sound a bit harsh but with the big work load on our shoulders already we don't need people crying for a certain game - just look at some of the forum posts lately.

This can be handled by anybody with a bit of programming skills... We just want to make a good and solid "base" for everything else.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Actually that is a little bit harsh as no one has even mentioned games in this post. I'd be surprised if most people decide to use pdaXrom for it's game playing abilities. Making people interested in a rom is actually less about the under pinings, which are important, but people get enthusiastic about a rom for the user experience, the out of the box experience. That requires a core set of APPLICATIONS and FEATURES which frankly, are currently lacking. People use pdaXrom and think cool, wow so promising, but they soon flash back. You're losing people because you're not catering for them. THAT'S what a steering committee would help you address.

I've already suggested a user oriented variant and a developer oriented variant. Just allow a steering committe to tell you what we would like you to put in the user oriented variant and help to set that up and you can do what the heck you like with the other variant, safe in the knowledge that you'll get contributions and as long as the user variant is kept up to date underneath and the applications are refreshed whenever newer and better versions come out. Surely that can't be too much to ask.

If people have just arrived at pdaXrom for the first time, many don't know how to compile apps, so how can you say that? There is a dearth of information and assistance out there and there need to be clear tutorials and instructions. Hopefully the new site will address this.

The average user doesn't want to compile their own apps. I wish linux people would get that into their heads. Not everyone is technically minded and being told they have to compile an application, just to even try it, is going to put people off. And you'll lose interest before you even start.

My idea for a committee isn't meant to be intrusive. It's just to provide a user based focus. You don't even have to be involved until we're ready to pass on our requests to you. They would determine a core set of apps and features we'd like to see. We'd ask you to incorporate them for the next release. Every 3 months or so, the core application set could be reviewed by the committee and if they say, based on user feed back "xyz-app" should be included as well, they it should and if "pqr-app" isn't being used, then it could be removed and "fgh-feature" could be improved by doing "def", then perhaps focus could be placed on that and these could be incorporated into each future realease and you'd just have to post information stating your progress with each of our requests in the same way as you're planning to do with the blog. Lots of projects work this way. That can't be too much to request, either?

Look, it's this simple. You've asked for user's money, it's been given. And you're asking for money to continue to be given, but you have to give something back in terms of control. You can't expect to just carry on doing things the way you've done them, if that had been working you'd not have needed to, in essence, beg for our money. You may not like it, but by giving you money, we're effectively employing you to develop for us. We could quite easily club together and employ someone else or stop giving you money. You don't own pdaXrom, it's linux, it's opensource, it could be forked. Etc.

We are grateful that you developers have created this rom, so please don't take any offence over what I've just said because I'm just stating my views and offering you a warning based on other examples I've read from the linux world.  But you need to show a little bit more gratitude towards us users for giving you our hard earnt money or you annoy a lot of people and they'll stop contributing and you'll be back where you started.

You've an opportunity here to create a great deal of enthusiasm and support and you're not capitalising on it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 05:30:08 am by omro »
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allanjard

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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2005, 05:10:39 am »
I do agree with Omro here - pdaXrom is an awesome rom, and you guys have done fantastic work on it. And given the responses in this thread many people (including myself) are willing to set up a monthly subscription donation, ie. the community would effectively be employing you full time. So its only fair that the money given goes into what is needed.

The whole point of a steering committee would be to act as a buffer between the developers and the community at large, so you don't have to deal with one or two people asking for certain games etc, the committee does. Like wise the committee could explain why the developers are doing certain things to the masses.

I think its an excellent idea to make pdaXrom an even better rom. Control of it certainly wouldn't be taken away from you, we'd just be able to help point you in the direction that would be beneficial to most people

Thanks
A

kopsis

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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2005, 05:37:27 am »
I guess I'm in the minority here but nothing would cause me to give up on pdaXrom quicker than seeing it be run by a "committee". I've been an engineer for many years and I've seen over and over how "design by committee" produces consistantly poor quality. You want one tallented visionary in the driver's seat with the freedom to follow his or her vision. Not that user input is not important, but aside from voicing their desires, user's should have no "control" over core development.

Applications need to be secondary, Sash needs to stay focused on stabilizing and refining the Linux "core" within the ROM. Relatively speaking, anyone can port apps. Very few people are qualified to do the low-level nuts and bolts work. And all the great apps in the world won't help a bit if the core isn't stable, complete, and fast. Similarly, every engineer knows you stay focussed on *one* platform. When you've achieved the desired level of completeness and stability there, only then to you devote significant effort to migrating your stable baseline to other platforms.

What I've seen so far tells me that Sash clearly knows what he's doing. Donations should be thought of as just that ... not "buying shares in the pdaXrom company" so you can vote on its direction. Just my $0.02.