Zaurus: A "Complete OS" with "Incomplete Apps

[padishah_emperor]

Oh I wish I\'d noticed this thread before, but I\'ve been too busy beta testing a *full blown* commercial application. Say no more...

Ok Tony, why can\'t you have these things, well you can, if you have sufficient RAM, swap and diskspace you CAN have OpenOffice but it will crawl along, why? because floating point operations need to be emulated, this slows things down to a crawl. If you want to run \"full applications\", get a cross compiler and do it, what\'s the problem?

But OpenOffice, Mozilla, GIMP, Evolution etc will be SLOW! I run GIMP on my Z, compared to a 400MHz PC it\'s slow.  Porting code with a heavy reliance on the FPU will always run slow the Z\'s processor. OpenOffice is a PITA on my 800MHz PC, it\'s tear jerkingly slow on a 400MHz PC, I\'d die of old age running it on a Z, it\'s enourmous!

Linux codecs, well most of them require FPU operations and many are illegal hacks anyway I\'m sure, but again speed is the problem. If you want them, get the source and compile it.  In short \'full blown\' applications require two things, your effort in compiling them and the patience of a saint.

Why are there no full blown applications? Because you haven\'t compiled them yet.

As for PDA vs Palmtop..
A PDA is a handheld computer, usually tablet form with a stylus, such as PocketPC/WinCE, Palm etc.  They are designed as PIM tools and sync with a PC or Laptop. Their primary use is for storing personal data like appoinments and phone numbers. The PDA as a concept is merging into phone technology, this will have only one effect, the manufacturers will cash in on our irrational love of changing phones like one changes underpants. But, the cattle-majority will chase this one like they are chasing video phones here in the UK right now, I don\'t see the appeal of watching 2fps 10x10 pixel video... ho!

A Palmtop is a full computer, it is used in ways that are similar to a desktop machine, although it may or may not replace a desktop/laptop\'s functions. A Palmtop has a form factor similar to a laptop or OS/Apps like one. The Zaurus is a Palmtop which *can* do some PDA functions, I get really pissed off with one individual who constantly tells me my Palmtop is mere PDA, it\'s insulting. It can do PDA stuff, but that is not what it is primarily for. That is why Sharp call it a Personal Mobile Tool, not a PDA.  In fact I pass wind with rage at the thought, it\'s like these idiots who buy the most obscure device known to man (our Z) and wonders how to put PocketPC on it, grrr!

MANY HP LXers like myself came to the Z, why? Because it\'s the dream machine, a full Palmtop with Linux and multimedia and all the bells and whistles.  People who come to the Z from a \'PDA\' background, unless they specifically want to learn Linux, will always want a PDA and will not be happy unless Sharp downgrade the Zaurus into a PIM tool - it evolved from that, it\'s not going to go back.

I do BTW use my Z as a laptop replacement, and as time goes on, more of a desktop replacement. I looked seriously into getting a UNIX laptop a couple of years back, like the Tadpole which ran Solaris. The Z filled that gap completely, it also filled any requirement I may have had for a PDA.

x86 compatibility in my opinion is touted too much, is an UltraSPARC system any less of a machine? UNIX has always been run on divergent hardware, as is Linux.

I\'ve said it before and I will again, the problem with the Z isn\'t the hardware or software, it\'s people with talent wasting it on producing things like pdaXrom or OPIE (this is not a personal attack) instead of writing or porting applications. Qtopia, X/Qt and Java should be sufficient for deployment.

I\'m not going to upset anyone by putting smiley faces in my posting, but I am smiling with gooey fuzzy glee! Believe it or face the trebuchet.

[DrWowe]

But OpenOffice, Mozilla, GIMP, Evolution etc will be SLOW! I run GIMP on my Z, compared to a 400MHz PC it\'s slow.  The Z has a RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) processor (derived from Acorn\'s ARM processors), code written to make use of RISC technology will outperform a CISC (Complex Instruction Set...) processor (like x86 PC\'s) when matched at equal clock speed. But porting CISC optimised code with a heavy reliance on the FPU will always run slow on a RISC chip.

This is wrong.  The XScale is slow on FPU operations simply because it doesn\'t have an FPU, it has nothing to do with RISC.  There is no more RISC vs CISC debate.  Read this article, then come back:

http://arstechnica.com/cpu/4q99/risc-cisc/rvc-1.html

I\'ve said it before and I will again, the problem with the Z isn\'t the hardware or software, it\'s people with talent wasting it on producing things like pdaXrom or OPIE (this is not a personal attack) instead of writing or porting applications. Qtopia, X/Qt and Java should be sufficient for deployment.

Don\'t lump them together.  pdaXrom I sort of agree is a little silly (although who are you to tell someone they SHOULDN\'t put X on their Zaurus.  It\'s all about freedom, remember?).  Opie is a different thing altogether.  It\'s an attempt to restore the open source philosophy to the closed source Sharp version of Qtopia.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It\'s basically the same thing, only better.  In fact, I would like nothing more than OpenZaurus to be the de-facto \"standard\" upgrade that everyone wants to install first thing after taking their Z out of the box.  That day is a ways off, though...

[padishah_emperor]

This is wrong.  The XScale is slow on FPU operations simply because it doesn\'t have an FPU, it has nothing to do with RISC.  There is no more RISC vs CISC debate.

Yep, I\'m talking total crap, after a few coffees and a re-read I don\'t know what I was on about, I was trying to say that FPU operations needed to be emulated, but it looks like it all came out wrong. That\'s what happens after being awake too long. So I\'ve edited it. ;-)

Don\'t lump them together.  pdaXrom I sort of agree is a little silly (although who are you to tell someone they SHOULDN\'t put X on their Zaurus.  It\'s all about freedom, remember?).  Opie is a different thing altogether.  It\'s an attempt to restore the open source philosophy to the closed source Sharp version of Qtopia.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It\'s basically the same thing, only better.  In fact, I would like nothing more than OpenZaurus to be the de-facto \"standard\" upgrade that everyone wants to install first thing after taking their Z out of the box.  That day is a ways off, though...

mmh, not sure what you\'re getting so excited about. I was just making the observation that the amount of effort which goes into creating alternate OSes IF focussed into application development would solve a lot of the gripes most users have. I\'m not sure where I said nobody can install X, I\'ll read through my post again...

[Inuyasha]

In fact, I would like nothing more than OpenZaurus to be the de-facto \"standard\" upgrade that everyone wants to install first thing after taking their Z out of the box.  That day is a ways off, though...

I think alot of Z users would like to throw OpenZaurus on their Z as soon as they find OZ. The problem is simply this: compatibility. It does not run exceedingly well on anything but the 5000 or 5500. With 3.3.6pre1, it does run on all of them, but still has issues, with both WLAN and with ipkg (speaking about the 5600, since thats what I have), and I believe it also has these problems with the other Zaurii too.

[DrWowe]

I\'m just saying, the Opie team DOES produce a lot of apps, which even can run on Sharp\'s rom, because it\'s also based on Qtopia.  I think you\'re mischaracterizing it by lumping it with pdaXrom, which is totally alternate, different, etc.  Opie isn\'t wasted effort, IMO.

[TonyOlsen]

If you want to run \"full applications\", get a cross compiler and do it, what\'s the problem?

That\'s the eventual plan, but I currently am overcoming a sharp learning curve with Linux.  I don\'t know how to do most of the things that everyone else considers common sense.  I would LOVE to get my own compiler setup on the Zaurus (gcc or is there something else?), and then I could have more freedom to do these things myself... but I\'m not there yet. Right now I don\'t even really know how a cross compiler works, nor how to set one up.

I have been putting a lot of effort into getting any of the various x86 emulators to work on the Zaurus but it was all pointless... there aren\'t any DOS emulators for the Zaurus that are currently working, unless you have pdaXrom, or unless you only run Linux binaries.

...but I\'ll keep learning and growing, until someday I hope to be an equal and then I can start helping more than I am asking for help.

I do BTW use my Z as a laptop replacement, and as time goes on, more of a desktop replacement.

Cool!

x86 compatibility in my opinion is touted too much

It has a limited need.  I\'m not seeking it so that I cab fell that this is a \"complete OS machine\"... I already feel that.  Although the \"Z\" is currently only 90% of a replacement for my 200LX because there\'s 1 important DOS program I have which can\'t be compiled for the Zaurus (from what I\'ve understood) because the source code isn\'t available.

I\'m not going to upset anyone by putting smiley faces in my posting, but I am smiling with gooey fuzzy glee! Believe it or face the trebuchet.

LOL!

[cwaig]

A lot of the codec support in MPlayer on the desktop comes from it\'s ability to load Windows codec DLL\'s. You can\'t use that approach on the Zaurus (it\'s not x86, so it cann\'t use an x86 windows codec), hence the more restricted list of available codec\'s on the Zaurus.

[TonyOlsen]

That was my understanding as well... but isn\'t there a way to cross-compile the x86 codecs to ARM?

[zenyatta]

You\'d have to have the source code that could be cross-compiled... at least I\'m not aware of any tool for \"converting\" x86 binary to arm. With the Windows codecs you don\'t have the source code so it\'s the same problem as you have with your DOS legacy app.

z.

[pgas]

Use pdaxrom, you ave full thunderbird, full firefox, full abiword, full gnumeric... but then I don\'t think you can run all these apps at the same time unless you have a very slow swap file. Firefox takes about 30 seconds to start, I let you make a guess for open office....

As for RealVideo, Windows Media, Quicketime codecs, I think they are based on a hacked version of the windows binaries (for x86 processor).

Note also that as close as a 760 might be to a mini laptop,  it\'s still not the same (screen much  smaller, mouse !=  stylus..., less ram...) , and apps with a UI that takes this into account are a good thing IMHO.

[padishah_emperor]

I\'m just saying, the Opie team DOES produce a lot of apps, which even can run on Sharp\'s rom, because it\'s also based on Qtopia.  I think you\'re mischaracterizing it by lumping it with pdaXrom, which is totally alternate, different, etc.  Opie isn\'t wasted effort, IMO.

Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions, I agree with you to a point. But I think the general lack of interest in OPIE is symptomatic of the fact that with the newer machines (excluding the 6000 maybe), most people either fall into two main groups: pdaXrom or Cacko QT ROM. There appears (from my own observation) little interest in OPIE. I did give it a try when I had a 5500, it felt buggy and the apps felt \"cut down\", just the kind of thing Tony has been talking about, plus there were too many issues getting Hancom to work, getting Java to work etc etc etc. I COULD be wrong, I\'m not the Oracle of Delphi, it may be better now, but I really wanted OPIE to work for me but it didn\'t, now I have a 860, I wouldn\'t even want to try, by what I\'ve heard it\'s still buggy and out of date.  Also with all these lovely apps being recompiled for pdaXrom, is there any reason why these could not have been compiled for X/Qt? Then all these apps would be available to all users.

DrWowe you are obviously aching for battle, I\'m all armoured up and ready for Flame Wars: Episode II. Are you running OPIE?  :twisted:

               

[padishah_emperor]

As for RealVideo, Windows Media, Quicketime codecs, I think they are based on a hacked version of the windows binaries (for x86 processor).

That\'s my understanding, my system is setup that way with Win32 codecs.

Note also that as close as a 760 might be to a mini laptop,  it\'s still not the same..

mmh, yep, depending on what you need a laptop for in the first place, it replaces MY need for a laptop. I can do wordprocessing, spreadsheets fine with Hancom, I can watch movies and listen to music, do coding or even experiment with Java\'s black arts, so I\'m alright jack. :-) But others will have other needs of course.

[DrWowe]

There appears (from my own observation) little interest in OPIE

I agree, but probably because it\'s not stable, not because of the concept.

Also with all these lovely apps being recompiled for pdaXrom, is there any reason why these could not have been compiled for X/Qt? Then all these apps would be available to all users.

Actually, that\'s a great idea.  I think working on a feed with lots of X/Qt applications would be a great project.

DrWowe you are obviously aching for battle, I\'m all armoured up and ready for Flame Wars: Episode II. Are you running OPIE?  :twisted:  

YOU\'RE ON!  But, I started a new thread to keep this one on-topic.  

Also, I\'m wondering if you\'re confusing Opie and OpenZaurus.  They\'re not the same thing.  Opie is an open source fork of Qtopia and a collection of applications.  OpenZaurus is a complete ROM that replaces the standard Sharp ROM, that includes Opie at its foundation.  Opie itself runs just fine on standard ROMs.

[padishah_emperor]

YOU\'RE ON!  But, I started a new thread to keep this one on-topic.  

Also, I\'m wondering if you\'re confusing Opie and OpenZaurus.  They\'re not the same thing.  Opie is an open source fork of Qtopia and a collection of applications.  OpenZaurus is a complete ROM that replaces the standard Sharp ROM, that includes Opie at its foundation.  Opie itself runs just fine on standard ROMs.

Of course I\'m not confusing them :-)
OZ was a non starter for me.
Can Opie be installed on my Cacko QT ROM on my C860 though? If so, I\'d gladly give it another go.

[DrWowe]

Opie applications can definately be installed on Sharp ROM.  They have a special feed at http://opie.handhelds.org/feed/sharprom/1.0.3/

Can\'t say for sure about Cacko, never tried it.