A step ahead (Mail now integrated in KDE-Pim/Pi)

[zautrix]

Yes, they were wrong not to have the source on the same page and not to have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree, but the project is clearly listed as GPLed on the Sourceforge page.
Stu

Thanks for your comment Stubear, but that we do not have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree is not true!

We have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree.

z.

[Stubear]

Yes, they were wrong not to have the source on the same page and not to have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree, but the project is clearly listed as GPLed on the Sourceforge page.
Stu

Thanks for your comment Stubear, but that we do not have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree is not true!

We have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree.

z.

Sorry for being unclear, I meant in the CVs tree of kmicromail. I'm not sure that having it only at the top of the whole CVS tree is enough (as you and Opie have it) when the apps in the tree are so obviously seperate applications - ie you can take kmicromail and use it without KA/PI or KO/Pi.

It's my understanding that in cases like this each application in the tree needs its own version - even if  its a link to the one at the top of the tree - so that it's obvious if I only take the cvs tree/source of opie-mail or kmicromail that they are GPLed.

If opie-mail had carried it's own copy of the GPL, then when you transfered the source to kmicromail the copy of GPL would have already been there and there would have been no misunderstanding as to whether knicromail was GPL or not.

An example is kdegames - although these are apps are packaged as 1 item when installed on most systems, they can run independantly. Each game in kdegames has it's own copy of the GPL.

Stu

[zautrix]

Yes, they were wrong not to have the source on the same page and not to have a copy of the GPL in the CVS tree, but the project is clearly listed as GPLed on the Sourceforge page.

3. You don't have any changelog about differences to opie-mail - read the GPL and the licence.

Actually they don't need a changelog - they just have to state that they changed a file and when it was changed NOT what was changed

2.  You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:

    * a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change.

Hi Stubear,

that is actually interesting.
Yes, the GPL claims, that you have a change log with the dates(not with what you changed).
I did not know that, because in every GPL project, I have had a look at the sources, there are no such logs. I think, this is because:
1) The logs are in the cvs
2) After some years, maybe the log would be larger than the whole file.

And the most interesting thing:

Opie itself is a clone of the GPL'd Qtopia Desktop environment from Trolltech.
And there are even in the cloned files in Opie no change logs.

Maybe Alwin should point his fellow Opie developers to that violation of the GPL as well?

z.

[Zuber]

No wonder people are getting paranoid about using open source software because of legal concerns.

I mean if people like ulf1 and zautrix can get hassled for "license violations" when they are doing it freely and openly to the benafit of the community,  then we might as well pack up and go home.

Actually, might be a bit strong, but just frustrated that someone is making the effort to contribute thier valuble time and ends up bogged down sorting out "details" when at the very least everything looks to be in the spirit of the GPL agreement even if every i is not dotted and t crossed.

[tg]

No wonder people are getting paranoid about using open source software because of legal concerns.

I mean if people like ulf1 and zautrix can get hassled for "license violations" when they are doing it freely and openly to the benafit of the community,  then we might as well pack up and go home.

Actually, might be a bit strong, but just frustrated that someone is making the effort to contribute thier valuble time and ends up bogged down sorting out "details" when at the very least everything looks to be in the spirit of the GPL agreement even if every i is not dotted and t crossed.

You are exactly right. This is a joke - we finally have a few people who are
contributing their own time and not for profit and now we want to turn them
into lawyers because someone is obsessed with fine print.
Please get over it and let Zautrix and Ulf continue to provied REAL contributions
to this community. It is obvious no one is trying to steal anything here and
no one is trying to take credit for other people's work. So what is really the
problem?

[slocaus]

I have to agree!

When I first got my Zaurus, I really wanted to use OZ/Opie.  I found that the answers from developers in the mailing lists and a couple boards were very rude, if answered at all. Basically, "learn to program and help us, or  shut up and learn it on your own and don't hassle us with stupid questions".

I still see appeals for help and asking to consolidate efforts, but when something really great like KDEPim/Pi comes along, it is attacked by the developers!!!!!!!

My overall impression of the OZ/Opie effort is not very good, after the last 2 years of attempts to use it and observations of how outsiders are treated.  No wonder no one wants to join  the Open Embedded effort!  I've seen Micky here offering very generous and courteous help, but he is certainly the exception in that camp!

[Alwin]

I have to agree!
I still see appeals for help and asking to consolidate efforts, but when something really great like KDEPim/Pi comes along, it is attacked by the developers!!!!!!!

Wront, truely wrong. Nobody is attacked 'cause he used stuff written by me. But you wrote in your post some of the reasons I've got pissed: Everybody uses our stuff - thats fine. But at this moment we ask for support to us - silence. just silence. I had spent a lot of time writing this stuff. I had asked for getting support writing the email client. Silence.

But for taking it, removing one of the base concepts, fixing some standard bugs - this time exists. But not the time sending patches. Not the time saying "well, there is this and this problem I would do it this way..." Nade. Niente. Nitschewo.

And sorry. At this moment I have all rights getting sicked. The one and only difference I can see between opie-mail and this mail-clone is the interface. Up to this moment I don't get any direct feedback what the changes are.

And hell: May be its great, but guy, don't forget: other had written this software. And not all of them are lucky about that someone is getting the honors not had written the stuff. He isn't attacked. I had asked just a few   - direct - questions. Up to this moment I didn't get any answer. I didn't get - I say it again - any patch. Nor bug reports. in german: NIX. He just tooked it and presented it as his own stuff.

And - splitting resources that way isn't good. So why it is inpossible that he asked "i want to use opie-mail for not opie-based systems. Hint, I take your frontend, remove opie stuff. The mail stuff we will develope as team in future"

Do you have an idea why we had tried to split interface and base mail-stuff? exactly for such! But everybody thinks he must make it own. Sorry. Thats brainfucked. As he had asked such - no problem. Why should exists a problem when making cross development and support.

But just taking it "tnx - bye" isn't good style. I don't know the english word and I have not time looking for a translations - but I call such "Profilierungssucht".

Bye
Alwin
just waiting that some patches/hints/infos comes back.

[zautrix]

He isn't attacked. I had asked just a few   - direct - questions. Up to this moment I didn't get any answer. I didn't get - I say it again - any patch. Nor bug reports. in german: NIX. He just tooked it and presented it as his own stuff.

I wrote, as you can read is the first post of this thread:

The current Opie-Mail (latest cvs version) is now intregrated in
KDE-Pim/Pi as KMicroMail.

THANK YOU TO THE OPIE DEVELOPERS FOR THAT NICE APPLICATION!

You just wrote, that you don't attack me.
But how would you call it, if someone is telling lies about you?

But just taking it "tnx - bye" isn't good style. I don't know the english word and I have not time looking for a translations - but I call such "Profilierungssucht".

Bye
Alwin
just waiting that some patches/hints/infos comes back.

Thank you for your post.
I believe, the whole problem is, that you choosed the wrong license for your application.
Maybe you should not write open source software and put in under the GPL.

And you are waiting for something?

As a reply to opie-devel I got

>I hope we can find out together, how we can manage it, to get my changes
>> back to Opie.

[snip] Thats fine. mail program is rather unmaintained, so you just
volunteered to be the maintainer of opies mail program
If you want.

I think, that is quite interesting.

And I sent nothing back until now, because I am working on the problems of the violation of the GPL.
And I think, it is very interesting that I found in the Opie sources the proof, that you exactly violate the GPL in that way (missing change log), as you accused me to do it.

z.

[slocaus]

I've deleted all Opie related apps from my Zaurus.  

Alwin, you are way out of line and your last post is embarrasingly wrong if you re-read what you have written and what Zautrix has written in this thread!  Your program violates the very GPL in the way you are complaining.  Where in the GPL license does it say that anyone using source must give back patches, hints, info, bug reports, etc.?  Get a grip, man!

Zautrix,  I'll support your work in any way posssible.  I have no doubts about your integrity in using GPL sources in the manner in which that use is intended.  Please carry on with your work in the same high quality manner that you have done beofre.

[tg]

Alwin,
Read the very first post (from Zautrix) in this thread. In that post Zautrix thanks (SHOUTS)
opie developers for great app.  So your argument that he  took the code and
wants all credit for himself is simply ridiculous. It is clear (from his later posts) that
he intends to send you code so you can merge it back if you want. What else do
you want? GPL does not require people to first get permission or blessing from whoever worked on some code before (many people work faster/more efficiently by themselves
and if Zautrix prefers that so what)?

[Alwin]

argh.
ones again:
of course it isn't required. of course gpl doesn't tell that someone MUST give something back.

All I say is that I think it is more than bad style using software of other and don't giving back anything. A big part of development time for opie-mail was generating fixes and hints for the libetpan. THIS is good style. There are words of a licence. And there is a spirit of licence. The words are this one-way. The spirit of OpenSource is that the origins will getting some back which will help all.

I have no problems to share my stuff. But I get a problem to myself when something interpret it that way that he can just take it but not giving back something.

So what? Everybody is angry about this words. But no one tells me why it should impossible that zaurix will give back his ideas. WE had helped HIM. Why is it such a arrogance to await that he will help US eg ME? Can someone tell me?

I'd never said (and I'll not) that it is a bad idea to make a clone of opie-mail for non-opie systems. Ok, it will lose some nice features meanwhile implemented but its yours.

Yes. No one MUST give something back. But opensource lives from the system that everybody is using something is giving something back. And if someone just taking and using it and modifying it and fix it and don't send back anything - this is just a kind of egoism. this a kind of one-way where one part of development give to much more than getting back. Yes. You're right. There is nothing in GPL about it. But this is just bad style. And I'll say it again.

May be that my first posting was a little bit strong. But I was realy angry about that circumstance that I had never seen any feedback. And it is real interesting - all of you are participating of this software. Most of you like it. But the author of the software is the bad guy 'cause he asked why he don't get anything on support. At this moment I asking myself why I don't make commercial software.

cu
Alwin
p.s.: zautrix, real, I had read that you fixed something in smtp-code. It would be real nice when I get some information about.

[bluedevils]

I understand that the frustration level for some of the opie team must be extremely high and I believe mickeyl has been a classy guy for most of the posts I've seen (including zautrix's and mickeyl's first encounter).

Alwin, Zautrix seems to have been responsive to your questions and is trying to correct any GPL violations.  It might not happen overnight, but he seems to be working on it.  He's temporarily stopped/slowed work on the pim suite!  I hope this can lay to rest any concerns you have presently.

I think it would be wise for the opie team to adopt the pim suite into OZ as it can sort of be an answer to opie's call to arms.  Think of it.  A pim/mail app that would be available also on linux and windows and zautrix would maintain it for you.  It would help take some load off the team and add an app that is highly touted across the sharp roms and pdaxrom.

I want both opie/oz and kde pim/pi to succeed.  Everyone would benefit.

[slocaus]

Alwin, read this quote from Zautrix

As a reply to opie-devel I got

QUOTE 

>I hope we can find out together, how we can manage it, to get my changes
>> back to Opie.

[snip] Thats fine. mail program is rather unmaintained, so you just
volunteered to be the maintainer of opies mail program
If you want.


I think, that is quite interesting.

And I sent nothing back until now, because I am working on the problems of the violation of the GPL.

It appears that your own Opie development team does not even know that you are the Opie Mail author!  They think it is unmaintained and think that Zautrix just volunteered to maintain it.  Something really smells badly here with your claims...  Why does the Opie Development team think Opie Mail is unmaintained?

[Alwin]

Sorry, I didn't telling lies about you.

I had read that. And yes - I should respect that you wrote thanks. Call it missunderstanding. ok?

So, I read the answer "no one is maintaining opie-mail" just now. not earlier. (I had a lot of other stuff to do last two months)

So: this answer is wrong. More than wrong. And it was not giving by a opie-member. So: opiemail IS maintained. It is one of the base-applications of opie. It must developed. It must get the NNTP interface finished. It must get more stable. There is a lot to do.

I think now, this was the missunderstanding (I hadn't time reading the mailinglist for a while - thats why).

About GPL and two-way help I had wrote enough, enough about words and spirit.

ok, so, let us cooling down, sorry, if you had the feeling I just wanted to piss you 'cause you use opiemail for your stuff without asking. Of course you can do that. Ok?

but real: we helped you - please help us. ok?

Alwin

edit and hint: authors of opie software are mostly written on opie.handhelds.org.

[Hrw]

I think it would be wise for the opie team to adopt the pim suite into OZ as it can sort of be an answer to opie's call to arms.

OPIE is one project, OZ is another project (Familiar, OpenSimpad and GPE are another). They are people working on few of them.

just my 0.02