Author Topic: Build Your Own Linux Powered Pda  (Read 214458 times)

Tom61

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« Reply #195 on: July 03, 2006, 08:13:27 pm »
From what I can tell, you mistook touch point for touch pad in my post. Touch point (aka Trackpoint) is a little pencil eraser looking pointing device, often times crammed between keys on a laptop keyboard, that you tilt to make the cursor go in the direction you want. This something that can fit (minus controller, but one could tap an ADC on the proc) in 40mm squared, with mounting hardware.

Touch pad on the other hand, is that annoying (IMO) little square that you have to move your finger across it's surface to tell the pointer where to go. That, I agree, is far too large for a handheld, and fairly big for most smaller notebooks.

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #196 on: July 03, 2006, 11:02:01 pm »
Threr is a remote posibility that you can power down the ata interface and replug it due te the CF socket, i wouldnt try it with a laptop hard drive thogh. i dought i would even have the space for alaptop harddrive however i will try and have the pins on a connector so you con buy a slim case and get a hard drive backpack

over here we simply call the trackpoint a joystick (or mini joystick) i am asuuming you are refering to the red thing most ibm laptops have

at the moment the laptop is an idea, there are some things that need to be sorted (ie i dont think it will support 1GB of RAM) and 800x600 is the max without an external video card no matter how many chips you have (unless you want 2 independent screens)

the 450 to 500 figure was an estimete for the boards and the chips, nothing else see www.ezpcb.com

i thoght when you plugged it into a laptop docking station (thats all it is) you would be able to use the screen as a giant touchpad  i can see why you would want a joystick, how about i replace the directonal pad with a joystick (up down left right and push down) will that be analg or digital?

case wise i was thinking about moiving the direction pad and pointer to the top of the keyboard to give the user more stability but i want your opinion on this. i also have a problem where my hands cramp up on ps2 controllers as they are so small so i am thinking of a case similar to the sidekick 3 with a fold up screen rather than a sliding one, this gives me alot of pcb real estate to play with and then i can make it thicker but shorter in depth and slightly wider (ie more rectangular)

in theroy you could use the irda as a scanner, the only reason bacode scanners include a led is so you can see what they are scanning (in fact i have seen some that do the actual scanning with an ir led because it gives a better signal) the best way te scan barcodes on this platform however is to ethier take a picture and have it processed in software (i have seen a gnu package that can do this) or make an adaptor that has an ir reciver and transmitter connected to the sound card, that works really well and you can do it on yaor normal Z's and use it to control the tv

just to finish up the laptop has the same limitations as the PP, dont expect more think of it as a docking station
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Tom61

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« Reply #197 on: July 04, 2006, 02:21:23 am »
Quote
Threr is a remote posibility that you can power down the ata interface and replug it due te the CF socket, i wouldnt try it with a laptop hard drive thogh. i dought i would even have the space for alaptop harddrive however i will try and have the pins on a connector so you con buy a slim case and get a hard drive backpack

Awesome. I figured a 2.5" drive would be too big for the base design, but an iPod style 1.8" drive is about the same size as a PCMCIA card.

Quote
over here we simply call the trackpoint a joystick (or mini joystick) i am asuuming you are refering to the red thing most ibm laptops have

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. IBM developed it and apparently hold patents on the design, IIRC.

Quote
i can see why you would want a joystick, how about i replace the directonal pad with a joystick (up down left right and push down) will that be analg or digital?

Replacing the D-Pad with an analog stick would be nice, but the only one I know of that is nice and portable sized is the one on the Tapwave Zodiac (which I don't know of a source to get from in quantity).

Quote
case wise i was thinking about moiving the direction pad and pointer to the top of the keyboard to give the user more stability but i want your opinion on this. i also have a problem where my hands cramp up on ps2 controllers as they are so small so i am thinking of a case similar to the sidekick 3 with a fold up screen rather than a sliding one, this gives me alot of pcb real estate to play with and then i can make it thicker but shorter in depth and slightly wider (ie more rectangular)

Interesting idea! Putting the gaming/pointing controls to the sides of the screens, to where they are always exposed, sounds great, and then have the keyboard underneath the screens. With the main screen facing down and closed, having the controls to the side would mean no need for buttons on the small LCD side for MP3 control (and having analog control of fast-forward/rewind would be fun). open it up to display the main screen and use the thumbkeyboard the same way as you do on a current clamshell, and have the sides to hold onto for better stability. Finally you could flip the main screen around and close it to where it's up for some really cool gaming. I might draw up a diagram, and maybe even make a 3D mock up out of paper/cardboard.

Quote
the best way te scan barcodes on this platform however is to ethier take a picture and have it processed in software (i have seen a gnu package that can do this)

Does this take into account the viewing angle, or is it just for scanners, and would need some pre-processing?

danboid

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« Reply #198 on: July 04, 2006, 02:45:44 am »
DaBlitz-

Yes- Thats a great idea to have a digital/analogue dpad and the trackball at the top (screen end) of the keyboard, but I don't know what Tom61 is talking about now. I must be misunderstanding but it sounds as if Tom61 now wants these controls on the sides of the screen/case. Dunno how that would work out as for a start there wouldn't be enough room for a d-pad on the side of the screen or case and it would then be totally unuseable except for when the screen is shut and your using it as a music player. I think you need to give us a diagram on this one Tom.

Like DBHI I also calls those wee nobs joysticks but they're my least favourite pointing device. They are the most compact though.
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Tom61

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« Reply #199 on: July 04, 2006, 02:55:15 am »
Da_Blitz mentioned making it like a Sidekick 3, which has controls on the sides of the screen/keyboard area. Linky:
http://t-mobile.com/shop/Phones/Detail.asp...63-d6904503dc71

You can have smaller D-Pads or analog sticks that would fit on the sides without making the handheld too much bigger width wise.

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #200 on: July 04, 2006, 08:50:21 am »
mmm, intresting, i forgot thats where the controls on the sidekick were, sounds good but i want to hear more feedback on it before i commit to it (basically im sold already as those side areas have alot of depth that the trackball needs)

the sidekick format is actually quite flexible, espesically with a flip around screen as you have the keyboard and gaming buttons or rotate the screen and fold it down so its pointing out and you get a game console format. mmmm.....
-
not really it was an OCR program that could read barcodes, i never gave it a second glance as it hadent been updated in a while (was still a very complete and feature rich peice of OSS, reminds me of cat or simmilar)  i asume you  would have to preprocess the image by detecting the barcode then applying  some squasing or minipulate it into a 1d piece of data (probelly esier to do it that way)

i can get a digital joystick easily (they do afterall use them in phones) mbut then you only get on and off, if you want analog i will dig futher but you might want to break a ps2 controller and have a look at the joystick in there, its just 2 potentimeters and some cassing

sidekick links (link didnt work for me)
http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/sidekic...review-roundup/
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/06/20/t...ick-3-hands-on/

its a good formfactor for a phone and gaiming console while staying close to  the general Z design which is ok for typing but i feel that with the extra bits at the side we should get more stability as well as it will stop my hands from cramping as it forces them to be in a more open postion
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danboid

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« Reply #201 on: July 04, 2006, 01:40:23 pm »
So thats what he means by 'sides of the screen'!

I'm not entirely convinced with the SK design myself because

* SK3 design will add a lot of length to the design. We should avoid adding extra length, width or depth unless absolutely required

* SK3 design looks like it restricts thumb access to the keyboard. On a cxxxx it possible to type, and reach most keys, with either/both thumbs- not sure if you could do that on the SK3. Remember that at least one thumb needs to be able to easily access 8/10 keys for our beloved zpsx

* I don't like the slide-out screen idea. Whichever design gets chosen I want the screen to fold out like on the cxxxx and uni. I like to know my screen is protected when not in use.  I would prefer the trackball and d-pad to be hidden and protected under the screen.

The only advantage to the SK3 design I can see is that we have more room for the keyboard.

Sorry, I'm too lazy to scan through this thread again but what was the plan for the far side of the pp? I would want some (smallish) 'L' and 'R' buttons, a scroll wheel (which can be tapped as a button too) and a HOLD switch for when screen is down and its being used as a music player we can prevent tracks skipping/ volume changing when we don't want (of course)

scroll wheel up/down - volume up/down

push scroll wheel - play/pause

L/R - Track up/down

push L or R for 2 secs- next/previous album

something like that. Are FFWD and RWD really necessary? They were essential in the days of tape but I don't think they're so important with digital music players- people just skip track/album normally.

If the pp0 is to be a decent music player, the HOLD switch is essential!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 01:43:19 pm by danboid »
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #202 on: July 04, 2006, 02:00:56 pm »
Urgh. . . .

Hmm, I've always hated that design of computer and games platform. PSP? Hell. N-GAGE? Hell. That. .  thing? Hell.

The way I see it, I only really play games with controllers If The PS2 conn is too small, try and get hold of an Original (LARGE) XBOX controller. It's USB, so it can be directly patched in to the Z's socket. Also the analogue stick? I'd rather have a trackball any day, and Those kinds of sticks are far more annoying for general use (Browsing, scrolling, selecting) than your average D-Pad. I have in fact NEVER seen a laptop being used with it. It's irritating and cumbersome.

On the point of the pad and ball moving to the top corner? I'd find that irritating as hell, too. Screen is even worse. . . And the OQO design? Sucks.   Stick with the clamshell case design.

On the laptop. . . I thought Dual-CPU would get their full memory content each? Or do they share the combined 512MB DDR bus?

The more I thought about the PDA sliding into the case of the laptop, the less I liked it. When they can communicate wirelessly at 54mbps anyway, it seems kinda a waste of time. Better to use the Laptop almost-separately, but do a wireless resource share (Via Samba and X11?) to access the files and hardware on the pocketpenguin.

Also my note about combining the two framebuffers was sheer guesswork. I take it it doesn't work like thet? XD Perhaps it,s better if we add an external graphics chipset, such as a budget Nvidia go chip? Since the laptop can power this, it would be fine. We'd lose another chunk of battery life, but we'd get a full 1280x1024 display functionality.

Rough estimate of what I'd consider a featurelist of the DeskPenguin. . . 2iMX31, wifi, Bluetooth, USB/VGA/DVI/Serial, keyboard, touchpad/trackball/Anaglogue-stick, Another biometric scanner, a HDD, 512mb ram, a budget 3d accelerator of your choice, a batt and an optical drive.

It's basically a low-power notebook which requires the PocketPenguin to log in. The whole thing could have the same Embedded kernel secure bootloader system as the pocketpenguin, andd because it shares the hardware (Mostly) of the pocketpenguin, with SD slots etc, it should run the same applications natively, although the OS will have to be different to handle the external framebuffer, and the PP linking stuff. You could even forget the second bioscanner, since there'll be one readily available on the Penguin you're using to log in. Essentially, the penguin connects to a wifi card in it, and logs in over 802.11g SSH or similar. The rest of the OS is then brought up, the second (User data) partition on the hard disk is decrypted and accessed, (The first is just a basic system with wifi tools to accept incoming PP0 connections. This could also be done from flash if the flash was larger.) If say, it had 2 wifi chips, it could then log into another local wifi network which it could use to access other computer's resources. Of course, the DP0 has no 3G, no camera,  no acellerometer etc. . . So for other functions, as well as to log in, the PP is required. But of course, since we're looking at the PP0 being X-based, the applications could literally be run as they are on the PP0, running in windows on the larger screen.

C'mon. You know it's genius. And because of the lack of hardware such as 3G, Cameras, touch panels, second screens, etc, I can't see this costing more than the standard PP. It's board density is lower too, thanks to the larger available space, bringing down the cost of production.

Maybe I'm going insane, but I'm not too sure about some of the last few ideas. . Keep 'em coming though. XD I'm hardly running this, so it's up to DB really.

And DB? You were right, we DO need a separate baseband processor. I'm following up some reccomendations FS made, and I'll get back to you.
Cortana: PXA250/Poodle: OZ/GPE 3.4.2RC1
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #203 on: July 04, 2006, 02:05:03 pm »
Well, as you can see, DanBoid and I agree kinda. Also, the L/R/Scrollwheel, good thinking, as is the "hold" slideswitch.

His idea for the keymapping for those is perfect. When I say FFWD/RW, I meant Track skip. XD

What do you think on my concept of the DESKPenguin, aswell?

One final note: Because of the Offchip GPU, we could save a few milliwatts from using the iMXL, couldn't we?
Cortana: PXA250/Poodle: OZ/GPE 3.4.2RC1
Tycho PXA270/HTC_Universal WM5  .30.107/1.09.00/42.42.P8/1.30.162
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danboid

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« Reply #204 on: July 04, 2006, 03:19:04 pm »
The iMX31 sounds like a great piece of hardware, the only thing I don't like about it is the 800x600 max res on the onboard gfx. What WERE they thinking?? I know 800x600 would be impressive on a PDA right now but, cmon, it has OpenGL acceleration, 512MB RAM etc. It hardly seems worth the effort of plugging it into an external display if all I'm gonna get is 800x600

This is where the mantra kicks in again, we must

CONCENTRATE ON THE BATTERY LIFE (ommmmmmm

Of course adding a GoForce or something similar will consume precious board space, up the power consumption and the price. If DB can add an expansion option for a GFX accelerator without too much trouble though then that would be perfect!

If we get the L and R shoulder buttons in then one thumb need 'only' access 6 buttons (not 10 sorry! The 6 other keys being the equivalents of triangle, square, circle, cross, L2 and R2) as start and select aren't used much. Of course we could plug a jock-off USB pad in but that instantly doubles the amount of space the pp inhabits and suddenly its not so portable.

As for the deskpenguin- I'm not really interested, sorry. Once we get to that size I want more than a 500Mhz ARM chip- check how frickin' fast the latest Pentium M's are! I'd rather wait for intels Pentium M successor or even a cell based laptop. Yum!
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« Reply #205 on: July 04, 2006, 03:44:23 pm »
Rightfully, if any add-on 3DX board be added to the default spec of the PP  we must insist the drivers and specs be 100% free, it being a Linux machine from birth- we owe it to RMS, Linus and everybody else who loves freedom and software!

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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #206 on: July 04, 2006, 04:02:34 pm »
The additional GPU" I was talking about the DeskPenguin.

The deskpenguin was just a random idea we came up with while looking at Docking station ideas.

When I think about it, A dock for the Penguin is kinda silly, so we might as well just build the Embedded laptop completely separately. Forget the PP logon stuff, just have the deskpenguin a completely separate embedded computer designed for looong battery life and uncorruptibility. XD

So for now, forget it, and back to the PP.
Cortana: PXA250/Poodle: OZ/GPE 3.4.2RC1
Tycho PXA270/HTC_Universal WM5  .30.107/1.09.00/42.42.P8/1.30.162
HollyWatch: Fossil AU5005 - POS 4.1.2
ATLANTIS: Fujitsu Lifebook T4210 TBPC2005

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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #207 on: July 04, 2006, 04:04:58 pm »
Hmmm. . . After the PP is made, I'm going to have to make a modified version. .  just a one off. The PocketKitty!

But first I need to get an AROS ARM port.
Cortana: PXA250/Poodle: OZ/GPE 3.4.2RC1
Tycho PXA270/HTC_Universal WM5  .30.107/1.09.00/42.42.P8/1.30.162
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #208 on: July 04, 2006, 04:46:02 pm »
Ok

Another VERY serious post here.

The 3G chipsets from Freescale are starting to look pretty challenging to implement.

I've been looking at Qualcomm stuff, that is used in the Uni. This of course has several advantages. We can see the hardware that's in the Universal as a guide to what chips are needed and work together, and the software and drivers being written for the HTC Universal Linux port, should work without too much modification, on the PPZ.

http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm6250_c...et_solution.jsp

That's the main chip for the Uni 3G, which according to HH.O uses "Serial and USB Interfaces." Another job for our asic, and another worry for our limited number of USB ports. We've already run out, and the 3G now wants it.

Only problem is, we'll need to build our own open source ROM for the Radio. And yes, that means a kernel for the 3G processor and the stacks.

It's probably better if we start re-looking at the MC300 and i.300 chips.

If you check the www.handhelds.org Unirversalhardware page,

http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalHardware

And look at the Qualcomm chip, it has it's own mini flash and Ram combined chip, as well as the RF subsystem. I therefore now get how it works. The 3G modem in the Universal is an entirely separate computer system with it's own memory, ROM, and RF subsystem, linked to the main CPU over SPI.

It looks like http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/p...=01J4Fsm6cyDbFf

Is the better of the two, and it's "Optimised for Linux."

Also Read the BR1094. Somewhere about Page 60 or so, it mentions "Freescales own 3G stack" while talking about support for open OS's.

Anyone got any dirt on this stack?

Right, so forget Qualcomm, we need this chip, a combined SD/NAND chip like the Samsung in the Top-left of the universal hardware page, and the RFX300 chipset to go with this. Clearly we patch the Audio I/O of this to our posh 7.1 audio chip, But the camera. .  I'm guessing we optimise the camera for Linux VOIP and attach it to the IMX?

What IS the data rate of iMX31 SPI? Since all our data has to flow to the modem over this bus. . . .

We still also need the Wifi system planned, and the Bluetooth. . .

Let's move people, move! XP


I think this is my best revelation yet, n'est pas?
Cortana: PXA250/Poodle: OZ/GPE 3.4.2RC1
Tycho PXA270/HTC_Universal WM5  .30.107/1.09.00/42.42.P8/1.30.162
HollyWatch: Fossil AU5005 - POS 4.1.2
ATLANTIS: Fujitsu Lifebook T4210 TBPC2005

Tosh256CF, Adlink CF 802.11B, 512KingSD, 128VikSD, CFChiMeiG1GPRS

danboid

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« Reply #209 on: July 04, 2006, 05:31:36 pm »
The only usb wifi chipsets I've heard that have decent open src people for Linux that are still widely available over here is

http://linux-lc100020.sourceforge.net/

This is what people are using with their gp2xs anyway

also consider these

http://rt2x00.serialmonkey.com/

http://www.ralinktech.com/

The PP is shaping up to be a landmark consumer computer much in the tradition of the 2600, C64, Amiga and currently the Z

Maybe even the best yet???
Zaurus SL-C3000 w/ MD swapped for a Kingston 32GB Ultimate 266X CF running ALARM
Banana Pi running ALARM on a WD Scorpio SATA II HD
System76 Gazelle Pro i7 laptop w/ SAMSUNG 840 EVO SSD running Arch x64

How to install Arch on your C3x00 Zaurus https://github.com/danboid/ZALARM-install