Author Topic: Build Your Own Linux Powered Pda  (Read 214339 times)

Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #210 on: July 04, 2006, 05:46:21 pm »
Don't talk to me about Atari. COMMODORE FOR EVER! |flies the boing-ball flag|

The PPZ is gonna be a landmark because it's the first Commercially available TuxPhone. XD

It's also the most powerful PDA design on the planet as far as I know. . . Some have faster processors, but there aren;t many with DDR266, 3G, Videoout. etc.

The Zydas there looks good as a backup, but remember we're going for 802.11G. . . Surely any USB chipset used in a desktop lincompatible USBwifi card works?????

The TI ACX100 works. . is that G?

Prism54?

I'm still surprised it took me so long to undestand how the phone system worked. I mean you can see it on the Frakking Universal pages! The phone has it's own ROM, it's own flash, and it's own memory!

And if you look at the website for the chip, it even TELLS you how it works!

I'm a moron. Officially. But now I've worked it out, lets get busy! I'll email Freescale to ask about their 3G stack at somepoint tomorrow.

Blitz, when you read this, email me your thoughts on the 3G computer, ok?
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speculatrix

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« Reply #211 on: July 04, 2006, 05:52:57 pm »
I think if I wanted to use the Z for serious gaming, I'd be happy, nay, prefer to plug in a USB game controller, or even have it as part of an expansion jacket/dock with extra battery... you could also have small speakers in the dock, kind of halfway towards the deskpenguin?

I wouldn't want to be hammering the keyboard for hours, especially the one or two keys that tend to get used for all games - the device is too precious to take a pounding!

Sudden flash of realisation: DON'T FORGET VIBRATING ALERT for calendars/PIM... this would also be useful for games as a rumble mode!

The desk penguin could be a complimentary device - sort of thin client with graphics on steroids, don't reproduce the hardware... remember the pp is going to have enough power to run X11 properly, so no need to have it drive an external display at v hires, just 768p for hdtv?
Gemini 4G/Wi-Fi owner, formerly zaurus C3100 and 860 owner; also owner of an HTC Doubleshot, a Zaurus-like phone.

Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #212 on: July 04, 2006, 06:02:01 pm »
Exactly, If you want to game the PP, you either put up with the keyboard (I do fine on my 5600!) Or you plug in a controller. With USB host and an XBOX or good PC controller, you have sevaral thousand buttons and vibration.

Don;t worry, we are REMEMBERING the vibrator. Come on! When was the last time you bought a new phone without one? XP

The PPZ external display looks to be 800x600.

My idea behind the DPZ (Which I'm starting to Rue) Was basically a dual processor. . . Well, It was a wireless souped up version of the PPZ, which could run all the apps and view the files on a larger screen, while accessing the cool stuff on the PPZ (Modems, bluetooth GPS, etc) and applying the talents of a better res screen (1280x1024) through a deicated Graphics chip instead of the onboard iMX. Basically, the files would be binary compatible, but run either slightly faster, or with multitasking support (Depending on the apps. Multitask quake? The point is?)

The 5500 can run X properly!

The general idea was like having a Big Brother to the PPZ which could run the same apps better in a desktop environment (For when you don't want to be hunched over your lap.) Like an AROS palmpilot and an AROS A4000T-60
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danboid

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« Reply #213 on: July 04, 2006, 06:43:06 pm »
I still definately want 2 shoulder buttons, 4 buttons would be even better (2 L, 2R) if there is enough depth.to the pp to accomodate it. If it does have 4 shoulder buttons, L2 and R2 can provide FFWD and RWD buttons in music playing mode and PSX emulation is even better!

It's looking like the open source BeOS clone Haiku is coming near to a stable release now, I'd love to see this ported to ARM- might be a good OS for the PP in a couple of years?

I know you can get OpenBSD for the Z but what about NetBSD? Maybe we'll see Solaris for ARM soon?

We need to petition Distrowatch to cover OZ, OE, pdaXrom, Cacko, Hentages etc!

Ferret S.-

As a fellow C= devotee myself, I must inform you you cannot knock Atari AT ALL because:

* Jay Miner, main dude behind the Amiga, also created the Atari Lynx

* Atari were offered the Amiga off Jay Miner before Commodore

* C64 and Amiga nicked the Atari joystick port

* Nolan Bushnell, Space Invaders, 2600, Paperboy, Gauntlet, Pit Fighter, Hard Drivin'...

Face it, the main reason home computers are so popular is that everybody wanted to play pong and space invaders at home!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 09:15:30 pm by danboid »
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #214 on: July 05, 2006, 03:27:01 am »
mmm, sholder buttons would be nice. alot of people would like psx emulation (including me, i want FF7) so maxing the layout close to a PS controller may be worth taking into consideration (but might have to drop one anolog pad, how many games use 2?, thogh virtual on at the arcades was great with its 2 joystick setup) or you can just get a ps3 controller with bluetooth

i personally dont use fwd and rewind but you can use the buttons for whatever you feel like, how many buttons and where we put them is the issue

i think if we went the sidkick format we wouldnt have the sliding screen as i always use my Z in clamshell mode to protect the screen

vibro alert is somthing that i will not drop as i use it instead of ringtones

ACX100 is B  the ACX110 ro ACX111 is 802.11G, personally i like ralink as they seem to be fairly open source friendly with their wifi stuff so i am leaning towards them but the zydas stuff is a close second, it depends on what we can source and which has better driver support. hopefully without binary blobs

speacking of HDTV i found an all in one chip that even does the encryption part with no software required so that means we get digital DVI and hdmi, no analog (sorry) but i might be able to hack somthing together for those who need analog compatibility (breackout bok or somthing)

im still in two minds about the laptop (and desktop) version, do i make them a docking station that provides power, a larger screen and some other misc goodness (usb hub and usb ata drive) or make a diffrent version of the board that can be used in a laptop form factor (a small one) that dosent need the PP in any way but can use the PP as a 3G modem and touchpad as well as some other stuff.

there will be a docking station for it to charge and provide breackouts for the sound and screen + usb so you dont have to plug it all in when you get home.

as for the SK form factor, try gripping the Z and crossing your fingers over, you find they overlap alot, now that is very good on my Z with 2.6 as i dont have sticky shift and i dont use capslock because its 2 button presses (and no sticky Fn) but if they are sticky then you dont really need them to overlap that much, i find that the way i grip the device leaves alot of area between my hands and the case where i could stick a bit more cassing

Hold is a given

dual proc if posible would share the DDR bus (can anyone say performance hit), might mention that there is a slicht problem with the blades, how to get them to talk to each other, im thinking usb ethernet unless i can fing somthing with a higher speed

Quote
The more I thought about the PDA sliding into the case of the laptop, the less I liked it. When they can communicate wirelessly at 54mbps anyway, it seems kinda a waste of time. Better to use the Laptop almost-separately, but do a wireless resource share (Via Samba and X11?) to access the files and hardware on the pocketpenguin.

why not usb as its faster and you can also charge from it, the good thing about a dock in the laptop is that you then dont have the PP dangling around, it all depends on wether the laptop gets a cpu of its own or not

cost of production goes down with higher densities  but the time i spend on it can go up exponentially

actually in its original Z form i was going to have 2 scroll wheels one for volume and one for next/prev track, alot of disceions come down to the form factor ill list the advantages of each below and leave it to you guys to battle it out (thogh i seem to be the only one to like the SK form factor but i guess its because so for im the only one who has to design the PCB)

Quote
CONCENTRATE ON THE BATTERY LIFE (ommmmmmm smile.gif

this is a non issue as everything has the ability to turn itself off and enter low power mode, its you usage patterns not the hardware that will detirmine current draw, if you dont turn off wifi there is nothing i can do about that. anyway everything except wifi is very power efficent

one thing i do want to do is put an 8 bit micro between the trackball and one or two other components to help the PP stay in low power mode for longer, anything that needs to be polled will be given to the 8 bitter so the main cpu can stay in suspend with the uC waking the cpu up when needed

add on graphics cards are very hard to do as this thing has no pci bus and there is no real embedded standard, if you can find me a chip i will do it no problems just find one quickly

the baseband issue is a huge one, forget qualcomm as i rank them as linux hostile, plus the chip you link to is an all in one chip not really designed for having other cpus

i have seen SPI at up to 25Mbps

the sound chip needs more research, that chip isnt a 100% solution, its mainly for the headphone sockets only, we may need another chip (like the power managment chip mentiond eairlier) but we will see once i get the wiki and do some calcs on form factor and bouard space
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adf

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« Reply #215 on: July 05, 2006, 03:40:50 am »
Whoa.  Last time I looked at do it yourself stuff here it was about tom61's px1 based stuff.  This is getting serious.  If soemthing along the lines of the last few days of posts gets built, I'd be more than happy to dump sharp for my next handheld
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #216 on: July 05, 2006, 04:46:56 am »
Heh, that's the point. There's no such THING as a 3G modem/phoneforembedded PDA's.

Basically, how they work is an all in one chip with it's own memory/Flash and RF subsystem.

This chip has it's own ROM installed on it (This is EXACTLY how the Universal works, if you read the spec sheets of the Qualcomm chip used) which is what's known as the "Phone ROM", which is connected to the Serial Bus of the processor, and the ROM runs all the stacks etc, emulating a Serial Modem for the CPU.

The Freescale "All-in-one" chip will basically be our phone, running the phone rom. (DB, I know you got all this, just for everyone else)

I'm looking up info on Freescales Linux 3G stacks, as well as the rest. . .

And to be fair, I just find the SK design annoying to use. Maybe it's a me thing, maybe it's not. I just think that we should keep the Z compact. It's a computer, not a PSP, hence why there's a keyboard on it. On thing I WAS thinking about, was a clip on controller pack for it, lokie on the old GameBoy's? Basically a USB controller designed to fit around the outside of the Z and provide the extra functions. Currently, I see no reason for more than one pair of shoulder buttons and a scroll-wheel, as well as for adding analogue sticks etc. The more we make this a games console, the less we make it a PDA. If we do end up off-licensing the motherboard design to GP2X, or whatever, then they can build a more games-consoley version. As a computer goes, I think Clamshell design is best, and the features that we'd already agreed on were more reasonable.  To reiterate, so everyone's clear?

1xCPU imx31
512mb DDR
1x Internal CF ATA
2x SDIO
1x EXT graphics of some description
1xEXT USB host
1xIRDA
1xRS232
1xRS232-JTAG
3G quadband Phone/modem (Connected to Audio)
Bluetooth (Connected to Audio)
802.11G
Accelerometer (3D)
backlit Keypad
Direction-PAD
Trackball
Clamshell design (Other still in consideration, but I for one hate it. XD)
Vibrator
Stereo speakers on screen panel
VOIP camera
Transflexive VGA touchscreen
Mini-Serial 4 Bit TFT for quick status review (On bottom of case)
Camcorder battery or Zaurus battery, 1800mAh
Audio (L/R) and Scroll controls on side of case
5.1 or Digital out via strange connector system
Biometric Scanner in form of Swipe finger bar
16MB NAND flash holding Bootloader, Initial Kernel, and Security code
CPLD for developer add ons, with free pins on board for wiring to add-on components. (With Some form of clip-in card connector? For adding new features A1200 style, without soldering?)
Carbon Fibre Black Case, with small amounts of gold trim and laser engraved logos on Screen section Rear.

Open Source OS running from internal ATA CF, with optional security features,
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morrijr

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« Reply #217 on: July 05, 2006, 05:49:04 am »
Quote
I just find the SK design annoying to use. Maybe it's a me thing, maybe it's not. I just think that we should keep the Z compact.

Definately.  Keep the size as small as it needs to be.

Quote
It's a computer, not a PSP, hence why there's a keyboard on it. On thing I WAS thinking about, was a clip on controller pack for it, lokie on the old GameBoy's? Basically a USB controller designed to fit around the outside of the Z and provide the extra functions.

Good idea!

Quote
Currently, I see no reason for more than one pair of shoulder buttons and a scroll-wheel, as well as for adding analogue sticks etc.

Am not so sure about one one scroll-wheel.  A scroll-wheel would be useful when the PDA is either configurations, when in clam mode a scroll on the short edge (rhs?) could be used to scroll up/down, when in book form (ie closed with screen upmost) one would be useful on the long edge.  Do they take up so much room?  Could the finger print slit scanner work as a slider?

J.

speculatrix

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« Reply #218 on: July 05, 2006, 05:57:21 am »
Quote
the sound chip needs more research
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

did a bit of googling, found various ideas:

[a href=\"http://www.audiodesignline.com/]http://www.audiodesignline.com/[/url]
http://www.analog.com/en/app/0,3174,996%255F1163,00.html
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT4294729815.html
http://www.musicdsp.org/phpWiki/index.php/...271847d474cb355
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speculatrix

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« Reply #219 on: July 05, 2006, 05:59:49 am »
Quote
it. On thing I WAS thinking about, was a clip on controller pack for it, lokie on the old GameBoy's? Basically a USB controller designed to fit around the outside of the Z and provide the extra functions. [div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

erm, I already suggested that; but have an extended battery pack too; maybe this could be a combined docking+charging station/battery pack/keyboard wotsit?

it's all very well having lots of peripherals and accessories, but then you lose the advantage of the Z being portable because you need a rucksack to carry it all!
Gemini 4G/Wi-Fi owner, formerly zaurus C3100 and 860 owner; also owner of an HTC Doubleshot, a Zaurus-like phone.

zmiq2

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« Reply #220 on: July 05, 2006, 06:14:13 am »
Wow,

I'm really thrilled to see/build the outcome of this thread.

Is there any brave soul who could guess a launch date ? I need to plan my finances to be first on the line to get one!
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #221 on: July 05, 2006, 06:42:26 am »
with all my extra usb stuff i would say my Z is currently at the non portable stage (hell i have a dvd burner for it) currently it has its own backpack

thanks for the sound links, this isnt the only project i am working on but it is the most time consuming, and chip research takes alot of time , i am working on rack mounting my 2 nslu's so the next couple of days will be reply only with no actual research but i should have the wiki up in a couple of hours, check my sig for that, the other project i am working on as a smart UPS that i  am bieng given free hardware to implement (thanks to gensi and freescale ), for those intrested see http://projects.ppczone.org/projects.php?project=197 i should be updating it within a couple of days

this thread is seeing alot of action and is gaining on the bluetooth thread at an incredible rate, i cant belive its getting this much peer review thoght i would apreciate more people commenting on this thing

finger print reader could work as a slider with software as its a 1D camera (or mabey 2D where one dimension is about 4 to 8 pixels by 64 pixels)

i forgot to mention the SK advatages:
more board space: those tracballs eat up alot of depth and i have to cut some of the bourd up just to fit it in
acsess to d-pad and tracball when screen is closed: this means that we need less buttons on the outside
Diffrent keyboard layout: moiving the trackball and the dpads to the side of the kepad means that we can have more/larger buttons

keep in mind that im not talking about a pure SK design, i just want to borrow the bits at the side and the screen sitting flush with the body as well as the controls on the potrusions it does make the L/R trigger buttons eaiser to acsess and also allows more room on the back as we all seem to be forgetting that the space around the sides of the case is at a premium everywhere except on the frount, i do like the way the screen slides however opening like a  clamshell is better, espicially if we use a hinge like the cxx00 series

we still have to work out where the trackball and dpad are going, top of the keyboard or bottom, i like the top as it gives stability when using the trackball but you get less when typing which in my opinoin is alright as you dont need the stability as much when typing compared to gaiming (which is the main use of the trackball and  dpad

also we currently have no deffinition of small, when i have been talking to ferret-simpson he has been refering to the size of the 5500 whereas i have been refering to the size of the c3000, are these the benchmark for a normal and aceptable size or do we want smaller, or larger.

i was hopping to use a smaller boarder around the screen than is currently on the c3000 (ie get rid of the black bars) the direct side effect of this is that it instantly makes the design more sk like due to the potrusions past the side of the lcd screen, even if we use a 4" lcd screen, we could however put speakers there instead

we really need pics up of prposed designs, wust work on the wiki now

J out
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #222 on: July 05, 2006, 06:46:55 am »
launch date is set to asap

it should be before the end of this year but dont put it down in your calender yet

i am working on 1 or 2 other projects so at the moment my time is split between them (see last post) however i am working on these projects full time as i am taking a long overdue holiday for a couple of months
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koen

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« Reply #223 on: July 05, 2006, 07:18:33 am »
What about a additional design for subnotebook (without all those dpads/joysticks/gaming nonsense) with a 6" or 8" screen reusing the same board?
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« Reply #224 on: July 05, 2006, 07:58:54 am »
Thats basically the laptop docking station, im putting that on hold till we have more details or we are closer to a finished product
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