New Linux distribution for PDA and embedded device

[bluedevils]

Before anyone else says it, I vote for KOPI (and KABC if it gets done) as the PIM for whatever platform it may be.

[offroadgeek]

I just don\'t want the choice and flexibility we currently enjoy being culled for good intentions or bad.

Maybe to help further your argument, could you articulate what choices and flexibility we currently have?

IMO we do have several ROM choices, but OZ and PDAXROM are the only true ROM development efforts for the Z.  The rest are simply hacks to the Sharp ROM.

...but I do not share his dream of a locked down Linux based PDA, i.e. a Palm type system heavily leaning towards PIM functionality. To me it\'s a severe downgrade and a restriction of choice. Why not fix what we have?

I can\'t see how consolidating development efforts translate into a \"locked down Linux based PDA\".  Am I wrong in thinking that because both OZ and PDAXROM are both \"open\" that any combined effort would also be \"open\"?

Besides, I think we will always continue to have the Sharp dirivatives.  There will always be people who want to hack/fix the Sharp ROMs.  But IMO the development effort for hacking a Sharp ROM is much different than with developing for OZ or the PDAXROM.

[rrashkin]

I find this discussion a little scary, to be honest.  I don\'t know about a \"typical\" user, but I want a mobile computer.  I sometimes use the PIM stuff but it would never sway my buying decisions.  I need to edit text (Word is nice but any text editor will do for me); a spreadsheet app of some kind is a must; and a platform of some kind (JEODE is fine) to load my own programs in some language.  The more choices of connectivity (with and without wires), the better.

Now, what I don\'t like doing is changing ROMs every - well, ever!  I upgraded to Sharp 3.1 because it seemed like I was being childish not to, but I held my breath the whole time.  I want a stable OS that I don\'t have to upgrade more frequently than ?yearly?, and then with as little messing around as possible (the Sharp loader from the PC with the cradle suits me JUST FINE).

Am I odd man out?

[derekp]

Now, what I don\'t like doing is changing ROMs every - well, ever!

In that case, you might be interested in a side project I\'m working on.  I\'ve put together a system for booting an alternate rom off an SD card.  Therefore, you can keep a Sharp-style rom installed for maximum compatibility, but also boot something like OZ from your SD if you want to try it out.  See my \"Dual Boot\" thread in the OpenZaurus forum.  What I\'ve got currently posted is for the sl-5500 only, but some others were working on getting it ported over to the other models (5600, cxxx series, etc).
I\'m working on the final version of the scripts, but the initial version I posted in that thread seem to work ok.  Just gotta make them a bit more user-friendly, and edit  the docs down a bit.

[rrashkin]

See, I\'m pretty sure I\'m incapable of holding down the C and D keys simultaneously, not to mention pressing that tiny button under the battery at the same time.

[padishah_emperor]

I find this discussion a little scary, to be honest.  I don\'t know about a \"typical\" user, but I want a mobile computer.  I sometimes use the PIM stuff but it would never sway my buying decisions.  I need to edit text (Word is nice but any text editor will do for me); a spreadsheet app of some kind is a must; and a platform of some kind (JEODE is fine) to load my own programs in some language.  The more choices of connectivity (with and without wires), the better.

Now, what I don\'t like doing is changing ROMs every - well, ever!  I upgraded to Sharp 3.1 because it seemed like I was being childish not to, but I held my breath the whole time.  I want a stable OS that I don\'t have to upgrade more frequently than ?yearly?, and then with as little messing around as possible (the Sharp loader from the PC with the cradle suits me JUST FINE).

Am I odd man out?

You have probably described what I feel. PIM use really is a convenience for me, not a necessity, not to the point where we need a whole new project/ROM or whatever the case may be.

Besides, I think we will always continue to have the Sharp dirivatives. There will always be people who want to hack/fix the Sharp ROMs. But IMO the development effort for hacking a Sharp ROM is much different than with developing for OZ or the PDAXROM

Point conceeded, I worry that this project could pull people away from developing for Sharp/Qtopia.

[zbones]

I wasn\'t going to add to this thread as I do sit in both camps.

People develop apps/roms for different reasons. Some do it for the kudos, while others do it for themselves first and then release it to the community to save others the pain.

Competition can be good for development, but working together can be better. But this only works if people share common goals and ideas and are willing to share knowledge fully without fighting over petty things.

Could you imagine proto and sash working together on a kick ass qtopia rom?    Although some may say they have been working on the same rom.  

I don\'t mean to stir up bad topics and I certainly don\'t want this thread to turn into a \"my rom is better than yours\" debate as I feel that we do all need to work together, the user/developer base is too small to be fighting or redeveloping the same stuff over and over.

I totally applaud Mickyl\'s philosophy on this. He is willing to do this and for the right reasons.

Look what 2.5 people have produced! imagine what ten people could produce in the same amount of time.  

I can see what you are afraid of, you don\'t want a \"jack of all trades master of none\" but it doesn\'t have to be this way if people work together effectively, even if you have to \"dual boot\" to achieve everything it would still be worthwhile, just having one build system would be a major start.

Imagine a rom which will run x apps seamlessly with qt apps.  This is almost possible now but needs a lot of work to achieve and isn\'t really seamless, if you could get this with one rom then it would change a lot of things.

It would also cut down a lot of wasted effort in compilation, which in turn cuts down on user confusion.  How many different versions of each application are floating around? how many times has a \"newbie\" installed the wrong version and had to reflash/restore his/her zaurus because they installed an incompatible version of an ipkg, I know I have and I don\'t consider myself a newbie.

Does this help in the amount of people buying a zaurus? There is a lot of confusion about at the moment, I see posts from people who think they can install either oz or the pdaxrom on an sl6000.  Just because you know which ipks to install on which rom doesn\'t mean that joe public does.

We do need the new users, as they could be tomorrows developers.

This is also not a \"susie v mandrake v redhat\" thing either, these systems can survive while competeing as the number of pc users installing linux is massive compared to the number of zaurus users.

I noticed you added the smiley, and I am glad you did as I don\'t want to make enemies here  

Peter

[kodiak25]

I\'m not sure why I\'m weighing in on this topic but here goes...

I haven\'t followed the other development projects closely, but I have stood back and watched OZ/OE for over a year now.  They\'ve had their troubles but I see definite progress.  Communication to the end users has improved.  The Wiki\'s are letting the OZ/OE community help each other out.  And I see a LOT of work being done by a few core developers.

In the last week, I loaded up a new Linux box (last one died horribly) and started playing around with OE.  I don\'t understand all of it but I know potential when I see it.  I\'m trying to learn OE and be a contributor to the OZ team.  Why?  Because these projects are complex.  I may not agree with everything Mickeyl and Kergoth and company decide upon; However they have put a very precious thing on the table...developer time (and a LOT of it).  And they need a lot more developer hours to deliver on the next-gen OZ image.

Amrein, I\'ve seen your commentaries on the OZ lists over the months.  You are entitled to your opinion.  You are certainly entitled to start yet another Zaurus ROM project (we are speaking of Linux after all).   BUT I doubt you will get too far, or if you do you won\'t achieve your goals quickly.  I have to agree with another poster on this thread: there aren\'t enough Zaurus developers to go around, especially kernel developers.

I was dabbling in apps for the Newton when Apple pulled the plug; It was heartbreaking to have zero tool support for a superior PDA (unmatched by anything, including Zaurus I\'m afraid).  That was when I vowed never to buy an Apple product (ever).  I made my mind up then that my next PDA needed to be Linux based since Windows CE was and still is a POS.  Sharp has effectively pulled their developer support away from the community.  We are lucky that there are some dedicated individuals keeping the Zaurus projects alive.  Why not support what we have?  Either support the OZ/OE developers or support one of the other existing projects.  I seriously doubt that yet another Zaurus ROM project needs to be started.

Just my $0.02,
Kodiak25

[aplanas]

I don\'t know by OZ/OE is not so atractive for new developers. But I agree with Kodiak25. I think tha OZ/OE is the BEST option (at last as start point for a new ROM). OZ/OE is the more open ROM in the zaurus field, so it is *our* ROM!! It is for the comunity and we are part of this comunity.

[padishah_emperor]

I\'m still not sure, we need to flesh out what we are talking about, a combined OZ/pdaXrom? Would sashz go along with that? Amrein does not want to discuss it off-thread, so I ask him again to be specific in what he wants here.

Amrein, are you proposing a \'fusion\' of OZ and pdaXrom?  What hardware will you be looking to support, are we going to cut-off 5x00 users?  Who gets the right to make that decision? What about the end-users, and some have voiced concerns as I have, will I be able to run Hancom Word and X simultaneously running GIMP for a bit of image editing while listening to a few albums on tkcPlayer?

I\'ve given this matter some further thought, I can now see **some** merits to the arguements proposed, but I still see problems and the worst outcome would be a ROM which is no better than OZ and pdaXrom now. But, since I prefer Qtopia ROMs/XQt anyway, I guess this project will not affect me, but I have the right to voice my concerns anyway, especially as this **could** divert precious developers away from Qtopia to this new thing.

[lpotter]

What\'s wrong with the common distribution we already have, called OpenZaurus (openembedded)?

[bluedevils]

There is nothing wrong with the distros or projects themselves.  It is the lack of resource to timely put out a mature/refined ROM that may be in question.

[sashz]

I\'m still not sure, we need to flesh out what we are talking about, a combined OZ/pdaXrom? Would sashz go along with that?

we have full functional ROM with stable base and good buildroot, we have own site, feed, for what we need in combination with OZ/OE? Maybe later we will add suport for running apps from our feed in Xqt.

[padishah_emperor]

Hi sashz, you do great work, thanks!

Are you in support of amreins proposal then, your reply seems to indicate you are happy with the current setup for pdaXrom?  You say we have a fully functional ROM, base etc. But at the same time you mention combinination with OZ/OE?

I wish my programming skills were better, I\'d love to get really involved in this stuff.

[bluedevils]

I think sash is saying that pdaXrom is fine as is and there is no need to be involved with OE/OZ