Poll

What is more important: Bluetooth or WiFi?

Bluetooth
7 (12.5%)
WiFi
49 (87.5%)

Total Members Voted: 54

Author Topic: New Low-end "tux Pda"  (Read 16588 times)

Gondola

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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2005, 06:15:22 pm »
It seems to me like everyone here has a different idea about what they want, and most of them differ from the base specs you initially posted.

How about this; write up a simple web page in php or something with approximate costs for each item...

Pick one from each line:

320x240 $20 / 320x400 $40 / 640x480 $60
RAM 64mb $10 / 128mb $20 / 256mb $50 / 512mb $100
Battery life 4 hours $20 / 6 hours $50 / 8 hours $75 / 10 hours $100

a la carte:

USB host $40
Wifi $30
Bluetooth $25
CF slot $25
SD slot $25

(Disclaimer: I made up these prices!)

Let people "build their own PDA" and see how much it would cost.  Let them save their option in a cookie, and gather statistics when they 'save'.  You can get all kinds of good info from that, including most often chosen options, and average/mean/median cost.

Without extensive market research, your product isn't likely to do very well.  Considering a ton of companies have done 320x240 PDA's, you need to do something different to catch people's attention... like 640x480 or built in GPS or whatever.
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Nokia 770, running latest firmware.
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mars

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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2005, 07:17:15 pm »
For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 07:22:53 pm by mars »
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kahm

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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2005, 08:36:28 pm »
Quote
For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Lower resolution display. Slower processor. No CF slot, only SD with no hope for SDIO. No keyboard. No USB host.

I'm afraid you've lost me here. Does it at least have IR? The *only* thing that I can think of that would make this worth buying is a 100% open software, and I'm not fanatic enough to buy it for that. It's basically a Palm 505 running linux.

I'm not going to vote either way for BT or WiFi. I'd want WiFi, but BT makes more sense for the main market in Asia. How practical is it to do two models, one with BT, one with WiFi? You probably won't get a consesus on one or the other.
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SL-C1000: PDAXRom Beta3 | SL-6000L: Sharp 1.12 | SL-5500: Cacko, 64-0 kernel | SL-5000D: OZ-Opie
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adf

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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2005, 08:48:42 pm »
gondola...
good idea, but aren' we all going to build a 6K-W clamshell witha a 600mhz+ scalable pxa 270 (with video accel)256 rom 128 ram (min)  and a bigger battery and optional battery pack?

maybe make a price cap that fits the manufatcturer?
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bluedevils

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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2005, 09:05:44 pm »
hmm....gondola=michael dell?
I'm now an iphone user and use my zaurii as serial terminals, perl and shell scripting and when I need 640x480 screens

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Gondola

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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2005, 11:13:32 pm »
Quote
hmm....gondola=michael dell?
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

LOL!

No, I am not Michael Dell... but putting a price cap on it would help in eliminating frivolous choices and get people to answer what they really would like in a pda.  Good idea, adf.

And actually no, I wouldn't build one with all that extra stuff... I want something that'll give me a nice display (640x480 at least) in the smallest package... running an open platform like Linux preferably.. So yeah give me performance and display but make it small.  I'd do with a shorter battery time and fewer slots to shave off excess weight and bulk.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 11:16:33 pm by Gondola »
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Nokia 770, running latest firmware.
1GB RS-MMC sandisk card
Garmin Etrex Legend GPS/USB Earthmate GPS
Rooted, with an SSH server, VNC viewer, etc.
[/span]

nequiem

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« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2005, 03:10:00 am »
I agree with Kahm on this one. What is the market for this thing? Who are you selling to? Most people on this board spend more to get more and are not interested in low end. They want a palm-sized laptop. Are we talking about the Asia market only? It won't sell anywhere else. Joe Euro/American won't want this because he could have PPC for the same price and could give a rat's dingy about it being proprietary. He would rather have a smartphone anyway. What if Sharp adds wi-fi to the C4000 or C2000 this fall? A wi-fi C2K at 1/3rd more would make this device look kind of redundant. I expect new Linux phones will be coming out to the Asian market later this year that will have approximately the same features as this device (though they may be more expensive).

Quote
Quote
For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Lower resolution display. Slower processor. No CF slot, only SD with no hope for SDIO. No keyboard. No USB host.

I'm afraid you've lost me here. Does it at least have IR? The *only* thing that I can think of that would make this worth buying is a 100% open software, and I'm not fanatic enough to buy it for that. It's basically a Palm 505 running linux.

I'm not going to vote either way for BT or WiFi. I'd want WiFi, but BT makes more sense for the main market in Asia. How practical is it to do two models, one with BT, one with WiFi? You probably won't get a consesus on one or the other.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

chrget

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« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2005, 05:49:00 am »
Hmmm, I doubt there is a big market out there for such a device at that price. Frankly, at 2/3 the price of a C1000, it's way too expensive. If I currently was in the market for a low cost PDA with at least a possible future Linux option, I'd definitely go for an Acer n10. They are currently sold around here at €199/$250 (SRP: €249/$315) and can be had for as little as €179/$225 (and yes, that's end price including 16% V.A.T) -- now that is low cost/low end.

While it doesn't have a keyboard, it does sport the useful combination of CF and SD slot, a fairly large capacity LiPo battery, 64 RAM/32 Flash, 240x320 3.5" display, IrDA and a PXA processor. While AFAIK there is no ready-to-run Linux distribution available yet, the efforts of getting Linux up and running seem to have progressed quite a bit.

Now, as a dealer I would probably rather think about spending some money in furthering development of this Linux port and convincing Acer to either give me all of their remaining stock (IIRC the n10 is no longer manufactured) or possibly ask them for a good deal on a small production run of this existing design.

It's likely that this might indeed make more parties happy than doing it some other way. But then again I am not a dealer (and I don't even play one on TV ), which is why there's likely a flaw in this plan ...

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handheld-linux

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« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2005, 08:49:32 am »
Quote
How about this; write up a simple web page in php or something with approximate costs for each item...
--- snip ---
Let people "build their own PDA" and see how much it would cost.  Let them save their option in a cookie, and gather statistics when they 'save'.  You can get all kinds of good info from that, including most often chosen options, and average/mean/median cost.
Yes, I have though about that and the best marketing research tool to do is called "Conjoint Analysis". It would provide you repeatedly with two randomly mixed products, sum up the price and let you state your preference. From all that it calculates the most preferable model and the relative preference of features.

I yery much like the idea of "Open Source Product Sepcification", so if you would volunteer to write the scripts, I would try to provide some data to fill it in.

Unfortunately, the whole approach works only if you have really the choice to design a device from scratch.

In this case it can only work the other way around: use an existing device and add something which is most urgently needed to make it attractive.

Nikolaus

handheld-linux

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« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2005, 08:51:15 am »
Quote
For the original estimate of 2/3 the cost of a CL1000, personally I'd rather spend an extra 1/3 and get a CL1000. The addition of Wifi or Bluetooth aren't compelling enough for me to go with a lower resolution display, no USB host, and it didn't seem like a built-in keyboard.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]
Ok, you are probably member of the "Micro Laptop" group.

Nikolaus

handheld-linux

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« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2005, 08:54:20 am »
Quote
Does it at least have IR?
Yes
Quote
The *only* thing that I can think of that would make this worth buying is a 100% open software, and I'm not fanatic enough to buy it for that.
Yes, that is the intent - and to have it available for some time. Independently of market strategies and product decisions of Sharp, Dell, HP or whoever...
Quote
It's basically a Palm 505 running linux.
Well, more an Sharp SL-A300 with either Bluetooth or WiFi.

handheld-linux

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« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2005, 09:01:50 am »
Quote
I agree with Kahm on this one. What is the market for this thing?
worldwide - whoever wants to have such a device
Quote
Who are you selling to?
All the gurus who want a Linux based PDA for daily use.
Quote
Most people on this board spend more to get more and are not interested in low end.
Not all. I have run a recent poll: https://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11403 whish as of today says:
12%  I love my Zaurus and will stay forever with Zaurus
38% I would like to have a low priced Linux PDA
29% I would like a Linux based Smartphone
Quote
They want a palm-sized laptop.
From the discussions I have identified three basic wishes:
* low end Linux PDA ("PIM PDA")
* Micro-Laptop
* Linux Smartphone
always assuming that they are as open for writing and installing software as the Zaurus.

Nikolaus

handheld-linux

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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2005, 09:16:07 am »
Quote
... currently was in the market for a low cost PDA with at least a possible future Linux option, I'd definitely go for an Acer n10. They are currently sold around here at €199/$250 (SRP: €249/$315) and can be had for as little as €179/$225 (and yes, that's end price including 16% V.A.T)

While AFAIK there is no ready-to-run Linux distribution available yet, the efforts of getting Linux up and running seem to have progressed quite a bit.
The question is: what is it worth to get a comparable PDA that already comeswith Linux installed, from a manufacturer who supports Linux and where you don't run the risk that a Linux release never comes or is never complete, or comes in two years when the device is no longer available?

An other point to consider: that is a sell-out price where nobody earns money. They even might loose money because the have to clear stock. So they subsidize by the new models.

And one more: How much does it cost to add Bluetooth/WLAN (unless you get a special offer).
Quote
and convincing Acer to either give me all of their remaining stock (IIRC the n10 is no longer manufactured) or possibly ask them for a good deal on a small production run of this existing design.
That could be a general alternative - if they are willing to do. Usually such companies fear the effort of supporting such a project - or you have to pay for it.

And as a dealer you have to get the money to support the Linux development from somewhere. So you have to make it more expensive than the original (or sell-out) price. And as long as the device is still available somewhere, everybody would buy the PPC version and install Linux. So to protect, the dealer must wait until the model is no longer available anywhere. And you get offered the oldest models... Is this attractive?

And: the device I am talking is also in production. So, if NOTHING would be added, it can be offered at a lower price.

Nikolaus

kahm

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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2005, 04:24:42 pm »
Let me see if I can sum this up from a differnet angle. You're trying to pitch this as an inexpensive Linux-based PDA to the 38% in your poll.

So, my question is: Why do people want a linux based PDA?

There are the Open Source fanatics who'd run anything as long as it's GPL. They won't care so much what they're running it on.

Then there are the people who want Linux because of it's power and flexiblility. This group is most likely split between capabilities and price - your mini-laptop group and you're inexpensive Linux PDA group. The mini-laptop group is definitely out.

Now, take the device you're suggesting. 320x240 screen, no keyboard, no possibility of expansion. With the specs of 32mb ROM, and 64mb RAM, I'm assuming that it uses a Pocket PC-like storage method - OS in ROM, Ram split between storage and memory, so it's pretty low on memory as well. This can be worked around by using an SD card, which is slow and limits the device by permanently occupying it's *only* expansion slot. It is priced at 2/3 the cost of the C1000, from which I take to mean at most ~$300 US.

At that price, you're going to lose the interest of the users looking for truly low end pricing.

So now you're left with people looking for a relatively inexpensive but flexible PDA.

Without a keyboard it is going to be harder to enter data into. With no expansion slots other than SD you can't add peripherals. The low memory limits the software you can install and run. You're device will have either Wi-Fi or BT, so you can either surf the net quickly or sync through BT (or for those lucky enough to have BT cell phones or computers, surf slowly)

So where's the flexibility? It's just a PDA now, albeit one that runs Dillo and Ko/Pi instead of Pocket IE and Outlook. Who cares what OS it runs if it is really just a PDA?

You said yourself on the first page that flexibility isn't the strength of a low-end device. If it isn't, then the only market you've got left for an underpowered and unexpandable PDA is based on it's 100% openness. And even then, if you can't extend the device in any way, what are you going to do with it? Recompile newer kernels to eke out another 1% out of an outdated processor? You're stuck with the same Email, web and PIM that every other PDA in the market has. If you go with BT then maybe the unit can be "expanded" by using BT peripherals. Unfortunately, they're expensive and inconvenient, forcing you to carry and charge multiple devices. That eliminates the "inexpensive" market again.

The original Z's were differentiated by being Linux, their keyboard, and the fact that almost nothing on the market had both SD and CF when they came out. The newer models had better screens than anything else out there, in addition to Linux and keyboards. The 3000 was the first PDA in the world to include a 4gb hard drive, in addition to Linux and the keyboard. Sharp has always been ahead of the PDA curve in some manner.

Take away the keyboard and the expansion, and what do you have left? Linux that you can't do much of anything with. Don't underestimate the impact that the Z's hardware has on the viability of the platform. You don't see a booming import market for A300's, do you?

Now, don't take this rant the wrong way. Having a 100% open and supported platform is a great idea.

You just won't be selling one to me.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 04:26:41 pm by kahm »
Fujitsu U8240 "Stormtrooper" -  Zaurus Supplement
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koen

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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2005, 05:34:27 pm »
Quote
The original Z's were differentiated by being Linux, their keyboard, and the fact that almost nothing on the market had both SD and CF when they came out. The newer models had better screens than anything else out there, in addition to Linux and keyboards. The 3000 was the first PDA in the world to include a 4gb hard drive, in addition to Linux and the keyboard. Sharp has always been ahead of the PDA curve in some manner.
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

So that's why they are releasing new devices without bluetooth and wifi in 2005.

</rant>
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