Author Topic: Build Your Own Linux Powered Pda  (Read 214215 times)

BarryW

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« Reply #285 on: July 12, 2006, 01:37:12 pm »
Quote
Oh yes, carbon fibre is also expensive (though I'm not sure of the cost of a block of Al and milling time to compare).

With that said, one can only try and see how it works.


Si
[div align=\"right\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]


It can be built from flat pieces bolted together.  Would give it that cool industrial feel.  Would also make fixing and modding easier.  If you drop it and really dent the side, just order the couple parts that got messed up.

Or, if you want carbon you can make carbon top and bottom panels.  Kinda like this.

[a href=\"http://www.c6mfg.com/Products.html]http://www.c6mfg.com/Products.html[/url]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 01:40:19 pm by BarryW »
What's this button do??

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Hardware hacks and stuff.

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #286 on: July 13, 2006, 01:27:49 am »
Sorry about the wiki, seems i crashed my routor (the one connected to my isp anyway), dont know why but i seem to be able to do that quite easily. i would like to get a dedicated 24/7 host up but i expect that wont be for a couple of weeks

anyway down to buisness:

MiracleBlue: nice to meet you, the best way would be to read the 286 posts we have generated but i did post some vory long posts, i think you are looking at at least 60 pages printed in total  there is a run down on my wiki of what is in it but not why we have decided to put such features in but i will try and answer the obvious

where posible we want you to use external usb equipment (DVB, flash disk keyboard, dvd burner )
performance is high priority
battery life is not somthing we can really do anything about (that includes incresing AND decreasing battery life, in the end it comes down to the battery)
this is a Zaurus fourm and we are all use to having a keyboard. if you have had PDA's with no keyboards up till now then you would probelly not relise just haow useful they are
2:17 isnt early in the morning, there are have been a couple of times where i have been on from 7:00 AM to 630 AM+ 2 days
extendable and hackable, that means providing a pinout for everything and documenting it as well as including a modular connector for backpacks/docking stations

i am putting in some very specific hardware that suits my needs first (sorry to say it) but i intend to inovate hence the DDR ram and the use of non intel chips . i am REALLY intrested in your ideas, i did take somee insperation from the page on handhelds and really want to hear what others want on the thing

back to casing: Aluminium is nice but CF is very easy to fiddle arund with for me, all i can see is huge costs to build Al cases on small scale. there is nothing to stop you making one, i can easily give you the dimensions when we have it designed so you can make your own. i am sure there would be others that would like an Al case. if however we had a comercial partner then it would be a somthing for me to think about. the outside CF is an intresting idea as it offers some of the advantages of both

also was that for standard Al with powder coating or Aircraft grade Al with textured finish, i need to get some real numbers for things like this but i do like the idea of a G4 style perforated alluminim case

anyway i think i should concentrate on the hardware design and leave this issue to you guys
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #287 on: July 13, 2006, 01:33:09 am »
forgot to mention that the cxxxx series can do up to 96Khz already in OZ on 2.6
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Nemuri Neko

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« Reply #288 on: July 13, 2006, 06:11:40 am »
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battery life is not somthing we can really do anything about (that includes incresing AND decreasing battery life, in the end it comes down to the battery)
[div align=\"right\"][a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][/div]

Hi,

This is absolutely not the case, if you are serious about producing this then please allow me to highlight how design decisions can affect the final product. None of this is intended personally so please don't take it as such.

I have followed this thread and have quite a few qualms but I will choose 1 to illustrate. You are placing down NAND flash on the NANDFC.... why? why are you placing so much and then making it useless by crippling it to 8 bits. I know you have it in your mind that it multiplexes onto the memory bus and will slow it down.
If you have a cite for this then can you please post it. I am working from the docs on the Freescale website and it is made clear that the PCMCIA/WEIM/NANDFC share pins, but it also states that the arbiter will chuck the NANDFC off the bus at the end of the transaction if a higher priority master wishes it ( and this includes all mem busses ). This means that you will not pay the penalty that you believe.
BUT this is not the most important point. Use burst NOR instead on the WEIM bus. The NAND bus tops out at 50MHz... slow... The WEIM can clock at 133, even tho it is still multiplexed you can use this to your advantage if you are clever about it and have an external DE-MUX address munger so you can interleave the 16 bit access on the half clock, this means you can use half speed ( and therefore lower power ) devices. If you want to be really cool you can use DTACK ( anyone else remember DTACK grounded? boy that takes me back! ) mode to stretch T1 to 2T and then burst at 1T using 2T access times for the flash. This will allow for a highly optimised flash interface. Although it would be a lot simpler just to use burst or sync modes.

Now to how this will improve battery life. The nature of the system use and locality of reference means that the external bus should be inactive for a large portion of the total time. It makes sense therefore to keep this time as short as possible.... so even tho the higher clock speeds will mean that there is marginally higher power useage per beat, you are keeping total accesses shorter in time so will reap the power benefit ( slightly higher power for a shorter period is better than lower power for a longer period). Also the more efficient flash interface will give you a fighting chance of XIP which Linux is coming to terms with. This will help because the SDRAM is the real power hog in the system, so you want to keep that in low power refresh as long as possible.... so a design decision made at this stage will give you a win-win on the finished product. It will be both faster and more power efficient. In fact, loading from flash will be about 5 times faster and 3 times as power efficient.

There are a few other things that can be improved upon, such as if you want to use "standard" FR4 without impedance control etc etc then I would consider buying in an external USB phone rather than placing on board ( also writing the software will be an "impossible" task ). Don't whatever you do put down an FPGA if you want it to run from batteries. Those who would want to use it will more than likely have an external board to play with anyway. Just pinout an LVDS connector, possibly using a serialiser/deserialiser on a max clocked WEIM bus. This can interface directly to any modern FPGA anyway. Anyway, enough for now I'll carry on following the thread and heckle from the sidelines occasionally  

nemuri neko

lardman

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« Reply #289 on: July 13, 2006, 06:34:59 am »
Quote
Or, if you want carbon you can make carbon top and bottom panels. Kinda like this.

That sounds like a good idea - easier to manufacture and still looks cool. But then you'd probably need an Al frame to go with it.

Quote
This will help because the SDRAM is the real power hog in the system, so you want to keep that in low power refresh as long as possible.... so a design decision made at this stage will give you a win-win on the finished product. It will be both faster and more power efficient. In fact, loading from flash will be about 5 times faster and 3 times as power efficient.

This is a concern I have too. I really don't think that more than 128MB is necessary (though it would be nice to have more of course), though I doubt I can change your minds about this. Can Linux shut down (don't refresh at all) banks of memory if it's not being used? Iirc this is what the Psions used to do to save power.

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Nemuri Neko

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« Reply #290 on: July 13, 2006, 06:52:40 am »
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This is a concern I have too. I really don't think that more than 128MB is necessary (though it would be nice to have more of course), though I doubt I can change your minds about this. Can Linux shut down (don't refresh at all) banks of memory if it's not being used? Iirc this is what the Psions used to do to save power.

Si
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The Psions made a lot of use of XIP. The iMX device has a timer that will place the SDRAM in low power mode after a set time ( 64 or 128 clocks ). There is a minimal lag on the issue of the next command, but not enough to worry about. So this will be independant of the OS. Linux does have patches for XIP, but I have never used them and do not know how good/stable they are. It may take some care in the set up of the MMU, but nothing that is insurmountable.

This is quite an interesting link on the subject of linux and XIP and a proposed FS

[a href=\"http://lwn.net/Articles/182337/]http://lwn.net/Articles/182337/[/url]


NN
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:58:33 am by Nemuri Neko »

lardman

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« Reply #291 on: July 13, 2006, 07:01:31 am »
and this may have something about cases:

http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/07/13/0113239.shtml


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Nemuri Neko

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« Reply #292 on: July 13, 2006, 07:10:23 am »
Quote
and this may have something about cases:

http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/07/13/0113239.shtml


Si
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The case is another thing that will be very hard. Are there any industrial designers in the house? even a good mech eng would do

I have done a couple of similar designs for a couple of large multinationals, even with a large NRE budget the case design was really problematic. We even had the design house that did the Psion 5 do a case for us, still not easy. I don't think it is possible to make a custom keyboard, on that a reality check needs to be done. I think the most likely route to success would be to take an existing KB or better yet a case. But it needs to be from a device that is cheap and widely available. and about the best I can think of is the zaurus. Here the top case and KB for a zaurus is about 25 bucks, but this way none of the "extras" will be included. Making keys and doing the mech eng behind a working reliable keyboard is not easy, whilst the electronics should be easy to get working, having the electronics and case work together will take some time.

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #293 on: July 13, 2006, 07:38:15 am »
Finally we get some experts comming out of the wood work

yes i am aware of the SD RAM power things, i guess the reason i mentioned that "dont say anything about the power" stuff is to focus the attention on other things at hand. basically when it comes down to the actual implemntation we will take care of it at the moment we are doing more than getting a rough design idea and trying to distill that to somthing we can work with

i can see that most people would not use more than 128MB of ram, the reason i would like to see 512MB is to take advantage of linux's caching mechanism and also because i can. i think i may actually have to go back on my word and reintroduce to tiers of memory as i was looking at the docs and think it might be posible to implemnt an auto detection of how much memorey is avalible in multiples of 64MB

shutting down memorey is a very nice idea and i doght that it can at the moment as there seems to be more dev work on the always plugged in idea however a simple "does this bank have data if not then turn it off" would be easy to implement however a better soulotion would be a memorey defragmenter that tries and remaps everything to the least amount of chips it can when the cpu starts to idle (an indication that going to low power mode would be a good idea). mabey we should set up a bounty for this when we are done or seed the idea to the kernel lists and see if someone bites (this could really help embedde boards)

i would love to see a Virtex 4 part in this thing but i also know how much current that think takes, therefore we would probbely be using a cpld of some sorts. HTC seems to use xilinx alot and i dont mind them (i prefer xilinx fpgas but dont care when it comes to cplds)

onto flash, I intend to use it for nothing more than booting. and for that i could still put it onto the ddr scince it will only be used for the first 3 seconds of the boot phase. i have the feeling that some others would like bigger chips on there for storage and i have no problem with that (unlike ram where every diffrent size requires diffrent register settings). i am aware of the priority of main mem over NAND. so at 50Mhz * 8 bit we get 50MB/s or connect it in 16Bit mode and get 100MB/s (theoretical) or we can go with WEIM and get 133Mhz @ 32 Bit (533MB/S) (onec again in theory) i do like the sounds of that. even if my planned usage patterns of the flash are lite

The main reason we chose the split interface was it makes booting much easier (built in support for booting that way but i havent looked at all the modes yet) and leasons learned from the Xscales, however i admit it wasent flash that was the problem in that case it was the CF which in this case still applies so that will be staying on the ATA bus. the problem was that MEM and CF were on the same bus leading to decreased performance when utilising both at once. this was shown in the betaplayer benchmarks when watching high bit rate moives on the CF card vs SD or flash. so flash ISNT the problem but because at the moment i belive we will be using NAND instead of NOR and the fact that we dont have an interface that can dump 50MB/s to flash to load the device in the first place i didnt see the need at that time.

however if there is demand for it (lets say 3 people) with valid uses/reasons then i will not hesitate in switching over providide it works with no complications

 the one thing i hate about this chip is that every single device can be connected in more than one way. while powerful it means alot of work for maximum performance

i should also mention that i have been talking to the guys who run openmobilephone.org and they seem intrested in the platform as a finished product however we are trying to set up (or it has been suggested) that we set up somewhere where we can trade resoucrces and expertise. say for exeample we need someone with skills in the relevnt areas to do a critical review of the design then this is where we would post to ask people to do it

back to the openmobile people. they really have a diffrent outloox. from what i have seen they are using the gumstix platform with gsm modules from sparkfun and a hitachi bassed 2x16 line display, seems nice and small and quite workable (i am intrested in it and would jump right in if it wasn't for this project). they are as far as i can tell aiming for a solution that you can put together with a couple of online orders and a soldering iorn in your garage. our solution is a much more "mass production, buy as one peice" solution so i belive that puts us at the top end. both have thier advatages.

the other thing i want to push is some kind of xxx approved. so in relation to the above it would be OpenMobile approved which would mean a fully open and documented platform that is hacker friendly. another thing we might want to do is branch out into one of the OSS mobile inititaves set up by the big players (OSDL,monta vista, motorlla... etc) at the moment there are several and we should probbelly align with one. i am leanning towards OSDL as they actually seem to be OSS developer friendly and are pumping back into the community in usefull ways (patches such as DPM (cpu freq scalling for emmbedded devices))
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« Reply #294 on: July 13, 2006, 07:49:58 am »
the ext series has an xip ability if i remeber correctly. but with the ram on this thing i would rather a squashfs partion or simmilar with compression enabled but then again i plan on having little flash and chucking my Z's microdrive in it

i saw that article. he is talking about somthing simmilar to us (it wasent one of you guys who posted was it) but they seem to focus on the case more than the overall idea (you see alot of that on slashdot, only ever one conversation about one thing at a time) however at the end they do mention custom membrane keyboards

http://www.melrose-nl.com/membraneswitch.html
http://www.newenglandkeyboard.com/

very hand and going into my hardware links bin, nice to know keyboards are harder than they appear, i was just going to use microswitches with a membrane on top but i guess the reliability wont be up to scratch (however i can just resolder new ones on when the break )

any thoght on this. perhaps a real time chat is in order im on MSN and am willing to sign up for most chat networks however irc might be better (alias is jaycoles (@) yahoo.com on MSN, last i knew i  was also signed up for yahoo messenger but i dont have contacts on there that i talk to)
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« Reply #295 on: July 13, 2006, 07:53:05 am »
Hi,

hmmm... with the advent of USB I would question the need for CF and PCMCIA. I am not sure how much each would get used. I'm not sure enough people would in reality use them enough of the time to warrent the board space, performance hit and case complexity. Remember, each hole has to be carefully engineered and the fewer holes the better. In REALITY, who will use the CF when the USB and SD is there? Wouldn't a better use of the case space be to have a USB "bay", a void inside the case that would be big enough to take a couple of de-cased USB "dongles" one for wireless and the other for bluetooth or a flash drive. It would be cheaper and quicker to use an existing device for these functions than to place on board. The KISS principle reigns supreme for homers. If someone else has done it better, cheaper and easier, then stand on those shoulders

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« Reply #296 on: July 13, 2006, 08:07:01 am »
i have to agree with you on that one, however i still would like to have the full ATA on the backpack connector. if i do get rid of the microdrive then the design does get alot thinner and we get some space back so it is worth considering however it is also nice to have an internal high capacity storage (ie microdrive or high GB CF card)

SD are nice but i am unsure if we can get the high speed out of them under linux, i should do some speed tests under OZ and see what i get as for top speed you need 4 bit SDIO and we know what that means (some sdio stuff has been checked into the kernel if i remeber correctly)

I have thoght about the bays before but think they are a waste of space. if we go down the thin route then why not a backpack with a usb hub on it so that a user can have it if they wish.

at the moment i am already considering a usb hub as every chip i look at is usb
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« Reply #297 on: July 13, 2006, 08:24:29 am »
In an ideal world then a backpack would be great, particularly with a USB hub. Especially to make it extensible to 2 or 3, but again there is the engineering effort to think about. One case is hard but having 2 cases that fit together in a neat way would be an order of magnitude more difficult. I think SD is the way to go, support is coming on a treat with linux.
Having said that  I have often thought about serialising the CF interface, pumping it over a thin LVDS line and deserialising it at the other end, kind of like a poor mans SATA. This way you get large storage and small, case independant form factor. decoupling the CF from the case would make things neater.

Prolly an IRC chat would be a good thing, have a party line with all interested parties if possible. One thing for sure is that all the people cannot be pleased. A lot of this sort of these collabortive projects fall over because in all the initial enthusiasm everybody gives their wish list  but in reality they would not use much of on their wish list and the project gets bogged down in complexity. I for one would like Doc Browns flux capacitor

Please don't get me wrong and think I am pessimistic or sniping at anyone in particular. One thing that springs to mind for me is the 7.1 sound that was mentioned. To use it you would have to be in a large room, with large speakers and a large receiver.... surely such a room would have a multimedia device far better suited to the job of producing 7.1 sound than a super zaurus. To justify 7.1 you would have to be watching HD content, that requires a lot of bandwidth and a lot of processing.... I am prolly missing the point, but this is a homer, it has to be realistic or it will not get built.

Wow, do I sound the billy come lately who is p*ssing in the porridge

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« Reply #298 on: July 13, 2006, 08:51:49 am »
dont worry about that i have had my dobts about the 7.1 thats why i am only aiming for 5.1 . at the moment i do have a pair of 5.1 headphones sitting next to me which would be great for quake. however there are some things that demand A2D that are tacking priority. ie power managment, microphone and D2A for things like backlights and gsm if we use a module, so we will see. i like the chip i have mentioned but it dosent fufil all my requirments as it only does sound

i do have a 5.1 usb device that works well with linux and i think i might just use that. however some people have mentioned this device for field recording and would like 2 headphone sockets. i belive this to be a resonable request and as such looked at high quality sound chips as that would be the best thing to go with it. however a external device might in fact be a better option for them as it will have protection and shielding and allow the end user to deside how much they need in terms of sound

the backpack thing is somthing that will go it as it means a docking connector or somthing a hobbist can connecta home made design to (and hope it wont blow the thing up)

but your right up till now i have been begging people to come up with wierd ideas and i did say that i was going to start shooting them down next week to get it to a point where its "makable" (is that even a word, i know salable (sale and able) is) so  thanks for beging the process

criteria are: is there a better way to do it (ie external).
now full sized usb ports are in the middle for me. i hat having to carry a cable just to plug somthing in.
backpack in my opinon would be a waste to remove as it allows people to add somthing if they really need it. as for the backpacks a snug fit can be hard but i dont see it bieng as hard as you state (i however am no a mechaical designer)
if you really need external CF then usb card readers are the way to go
in fact i am almost at the point where i would drop the external ata on the backpack and say use usb its that universal. if we have a internal CF then having an external one is a recipie for disaster not to mention the power up issues associated with ATA on an external DETACHABLE bus *** must ponder this more ***

just a quick question you dnot work for sharp do you  
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« Reply #299 on: July 13, 2006, 09:19:54 am »
 No I don't work for sharp, but I have designed a few PDAs and phones

Getting a backpack functional would be ok, getting one elegant will be hard. You can have one that simply "bolts up" to the mothercase and physical connection will be made by mechanical tightening. To have a nice sliding one that looks professional is a lot harder. A good but sad point is to keep everything square and blocky, so no curves and definitely no compound curves!!

Unfortunately I'm off for the weekend so will be back reading on Tuesday, so maybe we can hammer out some details then... maybe do it away from this thread as it is getting a bit large and unmanageable. In the meantime follow the mantra of the great Mr Chapman "Simplicate, and add lightness"