Author Topic: Build Your Own Linux Powered Pda  (Read 214207 times)

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #315 on: July 15, 2006, 08:46:44 am »
Buffered reads get 1.6MB/s, Cached get 308MB. (hdparm -t test) not pricise and quite supprising. but i have yet to test it more

i have worn out the headphone jack on my Z. been that way for a couple of months

from thier site thier new designs seem bettr, i wonder what the cause of the poor build quality was

800x600, is this needed on a Z. the chip has all the hardware built in to do quick easy rescalling (part of the image processing stuff)

yeah its great we finally get someone who has done this before
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danboid

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« Reply #316 on: July 15, 2006, 09:18:39 am »
Cached reads get 308MB? 308MB/s or 308Mb/s? Surely thats a typo? I presume you mean 3.08MB/s?

What about write speed? What is the speed rating of your SD card?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 09:20:18 am by danboid »
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #317 on: July 15, 2006, 10:51:17 am »
Hmmm. . . We have a full 16-bit ATA interface on the chip, right? You've been talking about using it with a CF card, but others want you to use the NAND flash for it, and put it on the DDR bus so it's fast, and the device is slim.

Why don't you just use flash chips on the ATA bus (16 bit)? It won't screw with the DDR bus (Essential if we want to get decent speeds for video and gaming.) and will be fast. .  right?

If you need to boot from the 8 bit bus, put the secure B/Loading kernel in 16mb on the 8bit, and like we were gonna do with the CF card, kexec the ATA flash. . . That would work, would it not?

I sure as hell want the huge fast memory, and if possible the ATA cf.

This is going to be my main desktop replacement when I get to university, on which I'm going to do recording. .  If you cut down the memory size or speed, the latency will shoot up. The device is then completely useless for music recording (needs 24/96 with low latency. . less than 10ms), and loses alot of the edge it had in terms of VOIP as well.

Why not ask the management for a separate  forum or subforum for device development?

And the point about the weight is because of the particular uses of this device. PDA's are stupid to use on a desk or a lap, they've got to work handheld, and I happen to use my 5600 alot when I'm in bed, doing late night work.

I do agree with abandoning external ATA, USB2 ATA will be fine for anyone who wants it.

I never liked compound curves, they're a nightmare for socket placement. I still don't see whats wrong with the CXXXX case shape.

Looking forward to this for good recording, good multimedia support, EXCELLENT security and good COMMS. If we take away from the Encrypted CF, secured bootloader in small flash stuff, we start lo lose the security features we were discussing.

And manganese casing, forgot about that. .  My clie was incased in it. Got pretty bent in places, but held the finish pretty good.

Rereading again.

WEIM is different from the DDR bus?  50MBps on the 8 bit NAND is pretty much big enough to load a bootloader and kernel into memory, right? o.O

That seems to me just another argument to go with the original secure bootloader and removable ATA flash. .  If your internal CF card fails (As it will eventually do) It can be replaced easily, and since the full OS will be accessed and written to a larger amount than the bootloader, It looks to be far more reliable to use a removable OS disk like a CF flash card on ATA, and keep the bootloader only in non-removeable flash. The bootloader will be reinstalled what. .  20 times total in the life of a device? Less for even most developers. . . If we have the CF card accessible in a similar way to the battery on an old Z, where the system shuts down as soon as you try to access the battery cover (Experiences of 5600), then having the CF under a lockable slot but externally accessible, seems to give upgradeability, easy repair access, and makes changing OS about 1000 times easier and safer than on a Zaurus. Also, with two external SD card slots, we can keep datafiles on an SD card, and put only the OS, and programs on CF.
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danboid

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« Reply #318 on: July 15, 2006, 04:37:12 pm »
Got my 4GB SD card today!

With it plugged into my PC I get about 3MB/s write on average and just over 5MB/s read and its supposed to be a 150x card

Is this normal or is my card crap?
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #319 on: July 16, 2006, 12:15:30 am »
Thats a good speed, on a PC thats about as good as i get. (i use the sandisk 60x ultra 2 cards). if i remeber correctly the 1.0 spec states that 60x is the max while the updated spec allows for faster speeds. as far as i know there are no updated readers avalible yet

that wasent a typo on the 308MB/s that was reading from the OS's block device cache (ie RAM). i should set up a test to generate files and see how long they take to be created but the numbers i have allow me to get a general benchmark for the card.

if you are worried i sugest filling the card and then copping data to the MD and timing haw long it takes (remeber to "sync" on the cammand line). over clocking will effect this as it is more of a test of how well it can move data around and is partially limited by the microdrive
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #320 on: July 16, 2006, 12:49:22 am »
The bootloader should be flashed once and then made RO atherwise thier is a security flaw in it that would allow a user to read the keys. it still needs some work and refining

WEIM is on the DDR bus but its very flexible in what you can attach

the flash is an intresting problem, we need it to boot (it may not need to be on the flash interface) but how much performance do we need, i know some people want large flash compared to using a CF card however the chip limits the size of flash to 1GB if i rember correctly, with ATA we can address over 250GB

this in fact is not that important as we can not hook the flash directly to the ATA bus, we need a translator which would be hard to do in a cpld but easy in a fpga. problem is that a fpga is very power hungry (and why i plan to put it on a docking station instead)

keep in mind that the secure boot increses hard drive (CF) latency and effects cpu load

what i like about the CF card on the ATA bus is DMA transfers and alll the nice goodies that ATA brings to the table. eg ability to swap out with somthing bigger and others, who knows we may be able to support hot swap ATA/CF cards

there is nothin wrong with the Cxxxx case for those who are buying the thing but for the PCB designer you really want to maximise the amount of board space on a project like this as the trackball takes a huge amount of verticle depth and makes the board non rectangular which means we have to pay to get the board cut. it also limits where i can put things like connectors.

for example i have designed boards that took 30mins to route to 99.5% then fail because it could not route it all. i would then move a part 1mm to the side and re-route. doing so all day. in the end i dropped 1 resistor and the whole thing routed in 20 mins. what goes where can make a huge diffrence. and these boards had no timing requirements unlike what we are designing

might ask for the fourm like you asked but i dont really want to do so unless there is a good chance the product will be made. i'll wait for "the cat" before making a desiion

not really a huge concern for most but i would like to make this progect as easy as posible on my time and my pocket
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BarryW

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« Reply #321 on: July 16, 2006, 02:28:00 am »
Quote
there is nothin wrong with the Cxxxx case for those who are buying the thing but for the PCB designer you really want to maximise the amount of board space on a project like this as the trackball takes a huge amount of verticle depth and makes the board non rectangular which means we have to pay to get the board cut. it also limits where i can put things like connectors.


Hey, anybody know what kind of trackball the new "mighty mouse" that apple is using has??  It's a little bitty guy that would probably be a good trackball for a handheld.  Though if it has a touchscreen I don't see why it needs a trackball.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/dissect.ars

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« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 02:35:15 am by BarryW »
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MiracleBlue

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« Reply #322 on: July 16, 2006, 06:14:19 am »
Thanks for the welcome =) Da_Blitz: I've used the Zaurus quite a bit in the past, and the keyboard just doesn't work at all for me =P Freaking tiny keys heheh.  Oh well, the keyboard is not too much of an issue for me.  I'll deal =P Anyway, moving on, I agree completely with the focus on device performance.  Although battery life is something we should try to be careful with, as well.  I'm also thinking of a device that can be customized extensively to the user.  Remember when all the latest mobile phones had like 350 colourful cases that one could use to add colour and a slight personal touch to their mobile phone?  People loved it.  The same with iPod accessories.  While there's no real functionality to the idea, it's something that really draws people - the idea of making their device unique, and to suit them.  I'm all for custom cases for my open-source PDA =D

Another idea is the whole issue with storage.  There's a really neat 0.85" HDD from Toshiba that holds approx 4 gigs of data.  Might be something to look into.  Although Hard drives are a proven battery-muncher, it may be an avenue worth exploring.

I've got much more extensive descriptions and ideas that I have written down somewhere, and also a bunch of my drawings I've done that I will scan in and upload to my server so that you can take a look at what my ideas are in more detail.  

Nice to meet you all =)

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #323 on: July 16, 2006, 06:47:56 am »
The toshiba thing looks nice as it is probbelly an ATA drive so no probs there. in fact you could even use a Ipod drive if you needed (they are ata right?)
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BarryW

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« Reply #324 on: July 16, 2006, 03:51:29 pm »
Quote
The toshiba thing looks nice as it is probbelly an ATA drive so no probs there. in fact you could even use a Ipod drive if you needed (they are ata right?)
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Yea, but they have a funky connector.
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #325 on: July 16, 2006, 05:06:10 pm »
Well, with an internal CF card, what's the problem? They're not THAT big after all.

The hot-swap ATA - That would only work if we were booting from SD, right? Note: There should DEFINATELY be a menu in the bootloader to choose what drive to boot from: ATA, SD0, SD1, or USB. . . Since it'll only boot a kernel with the right private key, that's not a problem for security. . . Trying to add IDE HS is probably too much of a hassle. . . With the USB ports, I think it's important to remember that you can plug in a USB CF reader like on a normal Z, so having a hotswappable drive is probably not worth the implementation headache.

I don't really mind too much where the Trackball and D-Pad are, as long as they are covered by the screen panel when it's closed. I only want to be able to knock the backpanel controls when playing music, and they'll be controlled by the "hold" switch. I'm gonna sketch out another design similar to the CXXXX systems in the next day or so, but just one point. . . If we're having end connectors, doesn't that mean the board is going to have to be routed anyway? Otherwise where the heck does the battery fit? Not to mention Trackball, CF card. . .

I'm going to have another design sketch out as I said, and I'll see if i can find a scanner or something to upload my (Terribly Drawn) current concepts when I have five. . . And a scanner.
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Tom61

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« Reply #326 on: July 16, 2006, 05:17:34 pm »
Quote
not really a huge concern for most but i would like to make this progect as easy as posible on my time and my pocket

It is a concern for most, as the cheaper and faster you get it done, the cheaper it'll be for us and the sooner we get it.  

Quote
in fact you could even use a Ipod drive if you needed (they are ata right?)

Yep. There are adapters from iPod-style drives to 40 or 44 pin IDE on eBay, hence why I suggested putting on a 44-pin IDE header.

Da_Blitz

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« Reply #327 on: July 16, 2006, 10:38:34 pm »
rectangular routing is easire and cheaper than odd shapes and eaiser to design with in my opinion. the issue is with the trackball but with the battery we just have that on the end and the CF we dont have a cut out just like on the cxx00 series

Quote
Quote
not really a huge concern for most but i would like to make this progect as easy as posible on my time and my pocket

It is a concern for most, as the cheaper and faster you get it done, the cheaper it'll be for us and the sooner we get it.

glad to see it

if you have used altboot on OZ you will have a good idea of what it does. i thoght we should skin it to look like a PC bios screen

and thats kernel signed with the correct private key (you dont want to ship the devices with your private key)
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Ferret-Simpson

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« Reply #328 on: July 17, 2006, 05:03:59 am »
CORRECT private key.

So the Private key will be preassigned with the device?

Never used Altboot, so you'll have to explain it to me on that one. But that's why I asked. XP

So, what DOES it do? I'm going to assume it will have options to choose between SD0 SD1 and ATA0, because that would make sense to include.

You could even have network boot support.  Ok. .  Maybe not network boot. But I think USB boot would be a good idea, because that means those who want to use it on a desktop can have a 300GB drive in a Powered USB enclosure, with a fully installed PPZ OS on an ext2 (ReiserFS?  What? I'm a slackware user!) partition and just boot to it, with all their software etc preinstalled on that. As far as the docking station talk was going, I think a Mostly-USB based solution would be better than using external ATA and stuff. That way if you want a better screen res, just include a USB videocard in the docking station.

I still think the notebok-type design was a good idea for that, with the PPZ sliding in to the case. This is of course another argument for a CXXXX style mostly-square case, because then the HDTV, Audio and USB port can just be on one end which slides into the case along moulded rails. |shrugs| You could easily fit a HDTV, 2 Audio jacks, and a full-size USB port on one end of the 5600, so I think that'd work fine. I'd quite happily use an 800x600 docking station if I knew I could just plug in a desktop monitor to it for a higher res.  You could then blank out the PPZ's TFT but keep the touchpanel running, and use it as an enlarged Touchpad for the notebook. This would mean the bare minimum of logic in the DPZ itself, just something to convert the HDTV signal into a signal for the screen, something to manage the DPZ's battery, and charge the PPZ while connected to a mains supply, A USB hub to connect to the internal keyboard and give external ports, and a power amp for the notebooks speakers and microphone.

As far as the bootloader goes, making it completely RO is in my opinion a debatable idea, because if any features, bugfixes or updates (Kernel  2.7?     ) need to be added later, then there's no chance. Perhaps leave it accessible to JTAG only? That way only a really skilled person could overwrite it, and by that point, you haven't really got much hope of keeping it secure anyway, they're intelligent enough to find a way in. At least the inbuilt security will prevent your average Drug runner from taking the device and selling it off.

If necesary, I think it would be better to drop the trackball than try and reshape the device to fit it in, because outside of that front-edge left or right, it's just not comfortable to use it. Better to keep an intelliball or something in your bag and use that if you need trackball. It's a feature I was looking forward to. . . (Every quad you taaaaake!) but if it's going to be somewhere that's uncomfortable to use, better to drop it and save the power. I'm presuming the board right behind the keyboard surface would cover the entirety of the device's area right? To attach the rear and end connectors to, aswell as keyboard, case controls, and LED's (And main TFT, SPK/Mic, Touch?) and to have the SIM socket (beneath the battery like a nokia?) on, and then have the other boards stacked on the other side of the case with the logic, second screen, second layer of sockets (Second SD slot parallel with the first?) and battery connector on.

Ipod drives. . . They're much larger than a CFII, right? So. .. Why on earth do you want to put one in a PDA? With all the stuff that's in this, I honestly don't think there's going to be enough space for a drive the size of a PCMCIA card. 20GB MD's are out in the next few months everywhere, (Since they're already out in some places) And that's more than most of you will need. If you need more, just buy an iPod and use it as a Powered USB Hard disk! You'll need to buy an ipod to get the hard disk out anyway, (Unless it's from a dead ipod on ebay) And bigger devices usually mean there's more stuff in them to drain power. XP

New ipod is 60GB for $299. Just use that over USB, and you're sorted. XP Battery will last longer anyway. (Is there any way that you can power down an unmounted ATA device? Maybe through your CF hotswap research? That would mean while using say. . an iPod, which is self powered, you could power down the internal drive for a power gain.

Just my $40. XP
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Da_Blitz

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« Reply #329 on: July 17, 2006, 07:15:43 am »
I havent heard of 20G MD bieng out, do you have a link

private key will be whatever you can generate and will be burnt into the device at first boot (i guess i can do it if you want and back it up for you in case you lose the key)

the idea for an ipod or laptop battry is for those who need some real storage for whatever reasons. it does add bulk but that means you can add a bigger battery

the bootloader is RO for a reason. there is no reason why you would want to update the bootloader. just try and name one that cant be done by kexec'ing to a gpg signed 2nd bootloader.  "think diffrent"

altboot is basically linux and a command line app that allows you to boot off of NFS, CF, SD and loop mounted images on the above formats as well as allow you to set the linux command line parameters. it is in flash and kexec's a kernel in /boot from the desired medium (CF and what not)

I find it funny haw many people assum that thinks like this will show a noticable gain in battery life, just my .02 c. the extra power this thing takes is nothing when campared to the wifi or CPU, even the RAM maes the power consumpiton of the trackball look tiny

i will try and get a diagram up (i find it very hard to imagine from a textual description) but the battery sits at the end because i assume the use of thick battries. the keyboard will be the only PCB that gose edge to edge. its very hard to say what the final board will look like as we still need to decide on chipsets and such which will give me an idea of how much space we will need

dont expect the sim card to be beneath the nokia. if you see how much room the cxx00 battery takes i think you will understand
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