Keep Pdaxrom Alive

[omro]

I guess I'm in the minority here but nothing would cause me to give up on pdaXrom quicker than seeing it be run by a "committee". I've been an engineer for many years and I've seen over and over how "design by committee" produces consistantly poor quality. You want one tallented visionary in the driver's seat with the freedom to follow his or her vision. Not that user input is not important, but aside from voicing their desires, user's should have no "control" over core development.

Applications need to be secondary, Sash needs to stay focused on stabilizing and refining the Linux "core" within the ROM. Relatively speaking, anyone can port apps. Very few people are qualified to do the low-level nuts and bolts work. And all the great apps in the world won't help a bit if the core isn't stable, complete, and fast. Similarly, every engineer knows you stay focussed on *one* platform. When you've achieved the desired level of completeness and stability there, only then to you devote significant effort to migrating your stable baseline to other platforms.

What I've seen so far tells me that Sash clearly knows what he's doing. Donations should be thought of as just that ... not "buying shares in the pdaXrom company" so you can vote on its direction. Just my $0.02.
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I don't think you entirely read what I wrote about my idea for what the committee would do. My intention wasn't to take over or interfere, but just to improve the user experience.

Also. They aren't asking for one off donations. And they aren't a charity. They're asking for continuous, monthly contributions. That's a totally different request. And as such demands a change in the way things are done. I don't wish to be rude, but if Sash want us to pay for him not to have to get a proper job, then surely he works for us? I'd love to be paid by people to just do exactly what I want without having to do anything but the things I want to do, but oddly enough I live in the real world. So if he wants our money, he's got to listen to those who pay him. No such thing as a free lunch and all that.

I don't mind a one off donation and I have provided one, because I think pdaXrom is great. I really do and you guys who have created this. You're awesome, I'm not knocking you. But if things stay as they are, I won't bother to contribute more because I'm not being listened to and I want to feel like my money is appreciated and making a difference.

[ikm]

There is no need for any kind of a commitee. An open market would be much better: people demand something and offer to pay some sum of money for it -- developers look if it suites them. If people want games, that would be games. In this case, if developers wouldn't be interested in compiling games, the people who wanted 'em might decide to forfeit the idea, or to raise the bounty for the task instead. And so on. The developers may also initiate the proccess -- by offering some feature and looking if it is worth doing, if there is an interest. That's how the world lives, most natural and efficient.

I understand that this would not guarantee a particular $500/mo, but that would be depending solely on the developers, so they would need to be doing the best -- and then they could acually get above the mentioned $500 barrier. This is most fair for both the users and developers -- what is paid is for actual work on the actual demanding things.

[omro]

There is no need for any kind of a commitee. An open market would be much better: people demand something and offer to pay some sum of money for it -- developers look if it suites them. If people want games, that would be games. In this case, if developers wouldn't be interested in compiling games, the people who wanted 'em might decide to forfeit the idea, or to raise the bounty for the task instead. And so on. The developers may also initiate the proccess -- by offering some feature and looking if it is worth doing, if there is an interest. That's how the world lives, most natural and efficient.

I understand that this would not guarantee a particular $500/mo, but that would be depending solely on the developers, so they would need to be doing the best -- and then they could acually get above the mentioned $500 barrier. This is most fair for both the users and developers -- what is paid is for actual work on the actual demanding things.
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My suggested method was an attempt as fairness, so that the developers get a monthly sum to develop the core as well as the user-centric side.

The bounty method deprives the developers of money to develop the core and opens up the money to other people. So the developers would be back to square one (penniless) and forced to attempt to claim the bounties faster than someone else in order to even have any money for core development.

If that's what it's going to take inorder to get what is wanted, who's in favour of with holding all future donations, drawing up a list of core things for a bounty process and then if the developers want our money, they can do what we ask of them? I really don't like this method, but if that's what it takes to be heard.

[TheWalt]

A few random thoughts from a newbie.

I bought a SL-C860 two weeks ago because I stumbled across this rom by accident and thought to myself "wow, this is exactally what I wanted my old pda (axim x30h) to do... work as a mini-laptop".

I tried the other roms just to get a fair comparison and although Cacko is a very nice PIM/PDA replacement it didn't have the 'mini-laptop' feel, thus RC10 is currently installed.

With the help of many users posting on these fourms I was able to get near everything I wanted up and running after only a few days, so cudos to the community.  I have been very impressed and happy thus far.

Then I saw this post saying how the developer needed some donations to keep things going.  Without hesitation I was going to send some money but didn't have my CC on me to setup an account so had to wait til later in the day.

After logging in I then started reading replys from people saying they would like more feedback and status updates if they were going to donate, which I agreed with, but also knew a improved web presence was in the works so not too concerned.

But then as I continued to read others started putting stipulations on their donations like their money had to be used for SL-C1000 / 3000 / 5500 development (which I don't have) and though " I don't want to give money to a project that doesn't effect my model anymore " so continued on.

Then others had restrictions of how their donations had to be used to make applications work with the rom.  Again, puzzeled because all the tools you need to do that for yourself are provided, which is a GREAT thing.  It was argued that some supporters may not have the knowledge needed to compile their own apps, and if this is true then pdaXrom is probably not your best rom choice (refer back to Cacko).

On top of that suggestions of committees and bounties... what for?  pdaXrom is, as I've gotten the impression from reading many many posts, a rom replacement with a very nice operating system complete with development tools.  Period.  The goal is simple, continue to develop this base system while making it available on more hardware (1000/3000/5500/etc) and updating compatablilty with various hardware accessories (CF devices, USB, etc) on existing platforms (7x0,860,etc).

----

Some of the other ideas have valid points and of cousre I would like to see more applications just readily available, but that sounds like a TOTALLY different project to me from pdaXrom core, and maybe should be considered so.  There seems to be enough passionate individuals here with the knowledge needed to set that up.  Keep Laze and Sashz in the core development, which obviously they are great at, and fill in some of the blanks yourself... isn't that what opensource is all about?

[ThirtyOne]

TheWalt makes all very good points.

I suggested bounties as an additional process in addition to contributing to the core ROM.

I suggested it because as an open source developer I like bounties.  it gives me an incentive but also a choice.  I don't have to go for the bounty but if I do then I get the incentive.  Or maybe someone else will and that is just as good.  It doesn't put money in my pockets but it advances the software.

I also think that setting up a process where other developers (as you suggest) can fill in the blanks around the ROM would help stimulate the community (though as omro says it doesn't help Sash pay the bills).

For those of you who haven't maintained an open source project, you don't realize the constant barrage of requests.  Some come on the forums or mailing lists but often they are just emails that say someone can't compile or ask if it is possible to add some feature.  Many of these people never contribute and when you help them change the code half the time they go away and never even provide patches back.  You need to have the flexibility to work on your own vision or else you just end up in support mode all the time.

[omro]

TheWalt makes all very good points.

I suggested bounties as an additional process in addition to contributing to the core ROM.

I suggested it because as an open source developer I like bounties.  it gives me an incentive but also a choice.  I don't have to go for the bounty but if I do then I get the incentive.  Or maybe someone else will and that is just as good.  It doesn't put money in my pockets but it advances the software.

I also think that setting up a process where other developers (as you suggest) can fill in the blanks around the ROM would help stimulate the community (though as omro says it doesn't help Sash pay the bills).

For those of you who haven't maintained an open source project, you don't realize the constant barrage of requests.  Some come on the forums or mailing lists but often they are just emails that say someone can't compile or ask if it is possible to add some feature.  Many of these people never contribute and when you help them change the code half the time they go away and never even provide patches back.  You need to have the flexibility to work on your own vision or else you just end up in support mode all the time.
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I have offered to assist as a liason between the developers and all the bombardment of requests. But as yet no response to that suggestion.

And let me just re-iterate here why I think we need to have more user steering.

We're being asked to support someone so that they don't have to get a paying job. We're effectively being asked to employ him.

You don't employ someone and then let them sit in a corner and do what they want. You give your employee tasks, goals and objectives.

I'm not trying to spoil his fun, but you don't get money for nothing and you don't get money to just do what you want.

[dirkoid]

I don't post often but this thread really made me feel the need.

If you don't care for the direction theproject is moving, or what the guys are working on, or that your particular model lacks support for something - start your own project.

The only reason to donate to pdaXrom is because you like the product and want the guys to be able to dedicate time to it. The software is free, you're not buying it. You're not buying stock in a public company you're allowing FOSS developers to continue to do what they love and you're reaping the benefits of their labor. If you can't understand this then you really don't get what Free Software is all about and it would probably be better if you didn't donate at all.

If they spend all the money on beer but continue to do the same great work, who's to argue?

If you see the need for this project to go in a different direction then form your committee, grab the source, and just go ahead and do it. I'm sure you can find developers who would be willing to join and work under your guidlines. Who knows? You might wind up as another Linus. Of course you could also wind up as another BillG.

Perhaps the steering committee should go on sabbatical for twelve to eighteen months to work out all of the details of what needs to be accomplished and get a firm business plan in place. Then they can return and be amazed at what has been accomplished in their absence, and without their interference.

Don't mess with success. The reason the rom is so good is because of the guys that did it. And yes, I donate to the project with no stipulations. If progress stops then so do I, but as long as they're forging ahead I'll keep donating what I can free of any strings.

[ikm]

My suggested method was an attempt as fairness, so that the developers get a monthly sum to develop the core as well as the user-centric side.

The bounty method deprives the developers of money to develop the core and opens up the money to other people. So the developers would be back to square one (penniless) and forced to attempt to claim the bounties faster than someone else in order to even have any money for core development.

If that's what it's going to take inorder to get what is wanted, who's in favour of with holding all future donations, drawing up a list of core things for a bounty process and then if the developers want our money, they can do what we ask of them? I really don't like this method, but if that's what it takes to be heard.
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Ok, it seems you didn't understand. I am not talking about inviting any off-side developers to participate in the bounty system. I would like to remind you that here, in this thread we are trying to work out a finance problem the current pdaXrom developers (sashz and Laze) have. We are not talking about any other developers! We need to get sashz and Laze some money, ok? So, I suggest only sashz and Laze participate in the bounty system as developers. Not anyone else. So the bounty method doesn't deprive money, quite the contrary -- it draws it. That's what it is suggested for.

Second, the development of the core most certainly includes a set of tasks, just like a development of anything else. For instance, support for new model XXX, support for VFP (done already!:), support for xrandr extension (done already!:), support for xvidmode extension (well, I think this is one currently missing) -- these all are tasks (features) too. Answering to the question on who's in favor of drawing up list of these -- both developers and users. They both may file them. For instance, the developers may know what an 'xvidmode' extension is -- then THEY file a feauture request, describing what that is and what merits does it have -- and asking if that is needed, if there is a monetary interest. Both users and developers (developers = Laze and sashz at the moment, as I said) would do so.

When we talk about a bounty system, we don't talk about other developers. The goal is to draw money to the core developers, not to anyone else. The bounty system would do so. And the bountry system would cover any aspect of development. All of them.

There is no need for any commitee. I understand you would like to be a part of it, but that solely is not the reason to build one.

[omro]

There is no need for any commitee. I understand you would like to be a part of it, but that solely is not the reason to build one.
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Actually I couldn't care less if I was a member of a steering committee for pdaXrom or not. I just care that my money is spent making pdaXrom better for me and people like me and not just to fund someone's desire to earn money for doing what only they want to do and not what's needed.

Perhaps the steering committee should go on sabbatical for twelve to eighteen months to work out all of the details of what needs to be accomplished and get a firm business plan in place. Then they can return and be amazed at what has been accomplished in their absence, and without their interference.

If people donate money to pdaXrom and discover it's not actually getting visibly better in the ways they want it to do so, they won't contribute more money. That's what I'm saying. If people feel they have a say, they'll be more willing to contribute. If I feel like I don't have a say and I know now that many people want a say also, I am pretty sure a large number of regular contributors will be lost.

If people aren't encouraged to contribute regularly, money will dry up, the developers will be back where they started and in 12/18 months, there'll be no real progress as the key developers will have had to get proper jobs in order to live and their time on pdaXrom will have diminished.

Do we really know how much dedicated development has been made in the last 12/18 months?

I'm not interested in derailing the project or setting up a competitor, I'm interested in getting these developers more money, but on the condition they don't just sit their drinking beer, cause I wish I could just just post a thread on a forum asking for money and spend the day drinking beer, but actually, no I have a job and live in the real world. And so do they. You don't get money for nothing and people who give money for nothing are just wasting their money.

I have given money to this project and I'm prepared to give more. I gave money because the work thus far seems outstanding, this rom is way better than any other. I'm prepared to give more money, just not unconditionally. I'd rather just increase my monthly contributions to cancer research uk.

BTW, if you are in the Uk and don't contribute to cancer research UK, please consider it, 1 in 3 people are struck with a form of cancer these days. Real charities need your money. If you're not in the UK, please give money to your own local cancer research/care charity. Bit of a tangent, but an important one.

[Sna]

omro, you are so interested about how your money can improve the pdaxom
did you ever donate for all the work they already did?
i just would like to point that pdaxrom is not a new project, this project was imho perfectly driven, and i don't see any argument to change this

so for my case, i never donate and i use the rom, so laze have money problem, i repair my lack of pay. And i dont ask how the money is used, and even if i've specified a preference for evolution, i've never say that the team must follow this guideline.

This is their project, if you don't like it, fork or find another (it is not because it's linux that their work is free, and it is not because of opensource that is free, and it is not because of the GPL that is free, it is only because they want to)

[scheck.r]

I think a committee is too much. It's not a company, we are not their boss,  it's fun, we are not buying stock options, we are in a free open source system.

If you like the work done, you give money.
If later on you are disappointed because you don't like the direction the project takes, you don't give anymore. Sure you will be pist off because you gave money to a project that doesn't suit you anymore but you have to take the risk.
I give money BECAUSE I like it, and not, I give money SO THAT I will like it as a investment.

It seems that they work a lot by looking at the speed of the progress. If I can make them happy in spending my money drinking beer, I am happy to donate, it's a present offered to them 'cause they make me happy using their ROM.

I am not good at Linux, I just like alternatives and I am curious about new things, so I don't know how hard it is to compile a program. That said, I know it's much much harder to do core development, dealing with hardware, ...

I hate people who tell me what to do, usually I just end up doing a bad job just to pist them off. So I think it's good and more efficient to let them what they like to do, it's a pasion, that's all.

I have no doubt about the progress on hardware side, I just hope there we will be enough skilled people to compile apps.

So let's give money, wait and be amazed by the new website and new LiveCD.

[jh]

I use pdaXrom on my C1000 and it's absolutely great.  The reason it's great is that the core group (mainly, I'm guessing, sashz and laze) have made good decisions about where the project should go.  I've taken a good look at what they've done, especially sashz's work on the the basic guts of the rom, and it's very impressive.  Because of this, I've donated.  And I'll donate again... and I'll let them make the decisions as to where the rom should go because so far they've been doing a great job.

By donating you're not "employing" sashz & crew.  You're supporting a project.  If that project doesn't go exactly where you want it to, start a new project... everything that makes up the pdaXrom is available freely.  I keep seeing people who want OpenOffice or other applications... the SDK is available.  If you can't compile it, find someone who can.  Or find someone who will accept a bounty to compile it for you.  If a bounty system is created it should be open to anyone and everyone... that's the only way things will get done.  It's worked well for the gnome folks, I think.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.  The Zaurus is a special breed of PDA... it's an awesome platform, but it takes a lot of hard work from folks to make it as cool as it is.  The pdaXrom group is doing that.  The OpenEmbedded, OpenZaurus, and GPE folks are, too.  Thanks for all the hard work.

jason

[stbrock]

I appreciate the desires of some for current users to have a degree of actual control over the direction of pdaXrom, but I don't think it is realistic. The users are often not in a position to fully appreciate the time and technical difficulties and trade-offs implementing their priorities as users might involve, for example in making Open Office really usable (not just run in slow motion without crashing a lot). The developers may also be pursuing other business opportunities for pdaXrom which they have to keep confidential but which must be taken into account in allocating development priorities.

A user group working up priorities and recommendations for features and bug fixes sounds great. Voluntary incentives such as bounties have proved successful in some projects. And more frequent roadmaps and explanations for the choices made by the developers will be very welcome.

I think mutual persuasion and support is probably the best way to keep pdaXrom moving in the directions users want for now. The developers have demonstrated their desire to make a broadly useful as well as technologically sophisticated ROM. That's why so many people are here now in this forum discussing where pdaXrom should be enhanced next.

[omro]

omro, you are so interested about how your money can improve the pdaxom
did you ever donate for all the work they already did?
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Yes I have and I've mentioned that I have more than once, this is the only Zaurus project I have donated to. I donated $50 the second I read the first post from Sashz, as a thanks for all the hard work that has been done in the past. And I don't even use pdaXrom day to day yet, because it's not able to do the things I need it to do yet, but it's the most likely candidate to be able to.

I think pdaXrom is an amazing Rom, the best for the Zaurus infact. I think the developers have done an incredible job. I don't deny that in the slightest.

All I'm trying to do is point out that you can't continually pay out money without knowing where it's going and what it's being spent on. And at this moment in time that information is severely lacking.

What if you pay all this money and all the developers want to do from this point forward is turn pdaXrom into a brilliant way to control all their stereo equipment? I know that's a silly and extreme example, but what if? What if there is no further development that is tangible and visible to all?

I'm not technical. I'm a mac user (that should show you how untechnical I am!). I have a single powerbook which I love. I have no PC, except a really awful pentium that's in a cupboard that I don't really want to bring out of retirement. I love pdaXrom and have enjoyed my attempts with it, but it's not yet ready for me to use full time so that I can abandon the other roms. I can't see myself being anything but dependent on the efforts of others to provide the apps that I want to use. I don't appreciate the, just do it yourself responses from others on here.

Not everyone has the time, skill or equipment to just do it themself.

All I've ever wanted and suggested was that a more user friendly version of pdaXrom be created, with a core set of apps and features that the majority of basic users require and desire. This is NOT catered for by the existing Rom. My idea for committee of users, was only to get involved in this element. The knee jerk reactions, while funny to read and containing some valid points are somewhat closed minded and missing my point.

I want pdaXrom to continue and grow and evolve. I have stated that I'm perfectly happy to contribute a sum of money each month. I'm just not willing to give my money away blindly. Why should anyone be asked to?

This is their project, if you don't like it, fork or find another (it is not because it's linux that their work is free, and it is not because of opensource that is free, and it is not because of the GPL that is free, it is only because they want to)

I really love it, I don't want to fork it or find another. I just want it to be brillaint.

Asking people do pay a monthly sum, kinda makes it not free....

I hope no one thinks me ungrateful for unappreciative of all the work that has been done on this rom. If I was, then I'd never have contributed a penny.

I'm allowed to air my opinion and I am. People can agree with me or not and thus far, the most vocal are the ones who don't. But there are people who do.

I gave my donation and I'm willing to donate more. I'll be in the wait and see camp first, I'll wait and see where this is going before I donate again. And this is my right, so don't comment on it. I hope the developers post a detailed road map and I hope the developers listen to user requests, even if they are informal, and I hope that the next proper release is as awesome as these release candidates are.

[adf]

A "steering committe" would be about the worst thing I can think of.  I kinda suspect that the pdaX people have sufficient skills to make money doing something they don't want to do already. There is no need for the beneficiaries of their project  to turn it into something they don't enjoy anymore.  I don't know of anything that is improved by oversight or steering committees--- my understanding was that such things were a means to maintain stability of governments. Coopting someone else's ideas, and compelling them to labor over your version and under your authority (however disguised in committees, organizations, churches, schools and microsoft --I mean corporations) is simply a very bad thing, however you want to label it.

As to "end user" applications on pdaxrom:
One of the really nice things about this rom is that it is pretty easy to grab a tarball and compile a program for your Z. I think that an improved "end-user" live cd ( in the works, I think?) and some really clear how-to stuff to go with on-board compiling would help a lot here.  If I guess correctly, the actual program behind omro's concern is openoffice. Stuff like this does pose some difficulty-- It is apparently a problem to compile for this version of pdax, it is gigantic, and lots of people probably won't use it, though it would be pretty cool. From what I've seen on the boards, some users are working on it. I think it can be run in a chrooted debian. It can certainly be run through an x forwarded ssh tunnel, or better through NX (Hint hint).  I expect it will be working eventually. In the meantime, abiword and gnumeric are quite good, and much smaller. What happened with siag?
Anyway... tested user feeds would be nice. ScottYelich has done some good stuff along those lines already.  Accessable, obvious "compiling stuff for pdaXrom" how tos and live cd "point n click" setups would be probably the best solution.  Much of that has been done already or is being redone. All that's left is a big red "click here if you are confused about..." on the web page.