Zaurus: A "Complete OS" with "Incomplete Apps

[CoreyC]

Tony,

have you ever ran FireFox using pdaXrom?  It\'s painfull.  Yes the zaurus can handle Firefox, but I know I am not willing to wait 30-45 seconds for the program to load, and put up with the sluggish web browsing.  Developers favor lightweight apps for the zaurus because they get the job done efficiently on the hardware.

[Stubear]

As I understand it, One of the biggest problems for developers porting to the Z is the lack of hardware floating point processor - this means that all floating point suff needs to be done in software slowing things down. This is especially a problem for the video/audio codecs as most of them have to be rewritten to ue the software floating point emulator.

Stu

[ScottYelich]

my 760 is a laptop replacement... but I know it has limitations... #1 is ram.  #2 is processing power... #3 is screen.  #4 is storage.

However, for what I do on it, I am 100% satisfied.  This is far more than a PDA, but it is not the same as a 3GHz desktop...
or even a 2.xGHz laptop.  OpenGL on the Zaurus? get real.

The only issue I have with the zaurus now is speed with mame and dos/windows/atari-st emulation... but native stuff -- it\'s just
fine.

My point is -- this beast will hold me over for 2-3 years until the first wave of powerful pda/palmtop computers comes out and
the price breaks.  I do not need to upgrade every 6 months...  I jumped from a 75 mhz p2 to a 500mhz celeron to a 3GHz p4.
ram went from 8mb (16) to 128 to 1gb (2gb).  You run what you need at the time -- and most people, I feel, are just hardware
junkies.  When I bought my last pc, it was like $20 for 20 or 30 GB of disk space!  2.8GHz p4 to 3.0GHz was like $50 or something.
that\'s $50 for 200MHz.  Already we see the 500mhz arm.

instead of trying to make the Z what is it not, why not just use what it is to the fullest.  If anyone wants kde on the thing, compile and run it (hi sashz!).
Many program \"suites\" these days do not want to play nicely in 32mb ram or even 64.  Yet, there are so many individual programs or stripped
programs that will give 80% or more of what you need that *will* behave.

Scott

[khim]

I think, OpenOffice needs too much RAM.

I\'ve used OpenOffice on Pentium-200 system with 48MB RAM. Is was usable. Slow, but usable. Even latest version. Zaurus is actually faster and has bigger HDD (ok, my Zaurus has bigger HDD).

But I do not like to reflash everything every time I switch from laptop mode (pdaXrom) to PDA mode - that\'s my current problem!

[amrein]

All those posts with emoticons put in wrong place... It hurts me. You don\'t know how to pass your emotions? Man... (and particularly computer scientists...)

Miami_Bob, I looked your avatar face closely and... and...
Yes master, you are rigth. HP LX series was real micro laptop with dos operating system. But they was also PDA because they was including all software needed for PIM, text editing, Spread Sheet, World Time, finance and a calculator... and was tiny.

What you are debating is what define a PDA. Is a PDA a device with build-in applications for PIM and a few other for everyday use and which are small enough to fit in your pocket? Is a PDA is a device that doesn\'t execute PC X86 programs? Does my Psion Revo with the PC 80x186 emulator loose the PDA label because it can run most dos software (all LX software too as it was including the wall LX200 interrupts to completely eat the HP software market)?

I agree with you in the fact that we could use Palmtop instead of PDA when those device use a keyboard.

Code: [Select]

THEN Palm began to emerge and (almost) everyone started to forget that the Jags & Cougars were the first TRUE *full* Palmtop computers.

You see. You too you use both words. Jags & Cougars were using Mac OS or DOS?
We could say that Sharp Zaurus SL-CXX0 are Palmtop and Sharp Zaurus SL-5x00 and SL-6000 series are PDA. PIM+software but  with the keyboad and a big use of the screen can make the difference. Or perhaps I\'m missing something. Difficult to be decisive, isn\'t it? SL series have keyboard and run an operating system as powerfull as a full ARM Linux PC...

Note: ARM device can execute Debian ARM or Netwinder Redhat 9, or ... and there\'re PC powered by ARM processor that are still sold nowadays. DOS is not the only full OS that worked on PDA (fortunately). So how could we call all those device?

You still love your HP LX. Me too. Mine is lays in front of me, at 1meter behind the monitor. If you call the Newton a PDA, don\'t PPC and PalmPilot break the name too?

Have fun.

[Ethereal]

We could say that Sharp Zaurus SL-CXX0 are Palmtop and Sharp Zaurus SL-5x00 and SL-6000 series are PDA.

The only obvious distinction between SL-Cxxx and SL-6000 is usability of the built-in KB with the screen in landscape mode.

[Miami_Bob]

All those posts with emoticons put in wrong place... It hurts me. You don\'t know how to pass your emotions? Man... (and particularly computer scientists...)

Please, expand on that. I don\'t think that I fully understand.

Miami_Bob, I looked your avatar face closely and... and... Yes master, you are right.

Awwwww. You\'re just sweet talking cause I\'m old & fat & green <G>.

HP LX series was real micro laptop with dos operating system. But they was also PDA because they was including all software needed for PIM, text editing, Spread Sheet, World Time, finance and a calculator... and was tiny.

What you are debating is what define a PDA.

OK, I agree completely. A PALMTOP *can* also function as a PDA. But a PDA is *not* necessarily (or even usually, IMHO) a PALMTOP. HP also made a 200LX branch off that did not have the PIM apps. A palmtop, but not, as it came from HP, a PDA. Palmtops are general computers. PDAs are PIM specific systems (IMHO). A \"lower\" order of computer. Sorta like an embedded microwave controller, for example.

Is a PDA a device with build-in applications for PIM and a few other for everyday use and which are small enough to fit in your pocket?

Depends on what else it can be made to do, I would say. But, in general, \"yes\".

Is a PDA is a device that doesn\'t execute PC X86 programs?

Not necessarily. But a device that can run more general programs than PIM apps certainly begins to rise above mere PDA level.

Does my Psion Revo with the PC 80x186 emulator loose the PDA label because it can run most dos software (all LX software too as it was including the wall LX200 interrupts to completely eat the HP software market)?

Yep. A PDA on steroids <G>.

I agree with you in the fact that we could use Palmtop instead of PDA when those device use a keyboard.

Not necessarily. I have a little Radio Shack EL-6996 / 65-1219 \"Personal Organizer\" that someone gave me (I take in \'stray\' gadgets & computer equipment) [the EL-6996 is actually made by Sharp *for* RS, BTW] that has a full QWERTY keyboard. But it is *only* a very primitive PDA (or PO) despite the fairly usable keyboard.

Code: [Select]

THEN Palm began to emerge and (almost) everyone started to forget that the Jags & Cougars were the first TRUE *full* Palmtop computers.

You see. You too you use both words. Jags & Cougars were using Mac OS or DOS?

Sorry. Falling back on bad old habits. The HP95LX was code named Jaguar while in development and the 100/200LX were Cougars. Those names were used as affectionate shorthand on the old CIS fora.

We could say that Sharp Zaurus SL-CXX0 are Palmtop and Sharp Zaurus SL-5x00 and SL-6000 series are PDA. PIM+software but  with the keyboad and a big use of the screen can make the difference. Or perhaps I\'m missing something. Difficult to be decisive, isn\'t it? SL series have keyboard and run an operating system as powerfull as a full ARM Linux PC...

Oh, no. I consider both types of Zaurii as full fledged \"palmtops\" with PDA functionality! The keyboard & screen make many uses easier for some of us, but are not essential, IMHO, to the definition of \"more than *just* a \'simple\' PDA\".

Note: ARM device can execute Debian ARM or Netwinder Redhat 9, or ... and there\'re PC powered by ARM processor that are still sold nowadays. DOS is not the only full OS that worked on PDA (fortunately). So how could we call all those device?

Actually, most PDAs that were not palmtops ran proprietary OSs, if I recall right. Nor is the processor, IMHO, a definition. Its the versatility of the machine that determines its category in my system of taxonomy.

You still love your HP LX. Me too. Mine is lays in front of me, at 1meter behind the monitor.

The HP\'s were a life long dream come true for a compulsive note taker and absent minded academic lime myself. How could one ever forget a \"first love\" like that? <G> Almost every old LX user that I know of says the same things.

If you haven\'t already, pop over to:

http://www.zaurususergroup.com/index.php?n...iewtopic&t=4220

\"A question for old 95lx/100lx/200LX owners and users.\"

We\'re trying to find the best way to move the old LX database format files over to the Zaurii. Give us your opinions!  <g>

If you call the Newton a PDA, don\'t PPC and PalmPilot break the name too?

One of the things that I have learned to accept is that not everyone (or even MOST people) are wireheads like myself & some of my friends. One of the signs of a \"mature\" technology is that it has began to become simple enough for the masses to use. And that the \"hobbiests\" gradually tend to fade out.

Look at automobiles. Radio. So forth. So now that is happening in desktops & (more slowly) portables. Turn key, no brainer, plug\'n\'p(l)ay devices. My brother is an intellegent man but he would be frustrated to apoplexy by a C860.

But he loves his Palm & uses it every day. Even a bit beyond the mere PDA level since he uses Mapopolis with a GPS system and loves using his Planetarium software under the night sky.

He does NOT like Gates & Micro$oft, but he doesn\'t have the time or inclination (yet) to learn all it takes to get Linux up on a mission critical 24x7x365 desktop system.

There will always be more Palm users than Zaurii users. Unless Sharp sells out and dumbs down the Zaurii REALLY hard. Thats what makes *us* the alpha technoids <G>.

The best that we can really hope for (IMHO again) is that Linux can be made sufficiently \"user friendly\" to compete yet not totally loose the innovative hacker edge & community spirit.

Have fun.

And you, my friend. Thanks for the chance to bounce ideas about. It always helps me clarify in my own mind when I have to explain my odeas to someone who asks good questions! <G>


Best to -

Bob W
Miami FL

[Inuyasha]

IMHO (being typed from a Zaurus...), the Zaurus falls under neither the PDA category nor the palmtop category.

Why? Well look at the \"original\" PDAs... Those old Palms. I\'ve got a Palm V somewhere in my house, of course it\'s mostly unused, but that was one of the original PDAs, 8MB memory, black/white screen, who knows how slow a processor. But it did what it was meant to, so it was used widely. That was a PDA. It was used to store adresses, phone numbers, calendars, and text. It couldn\'t browse the web, nor do much else.

And a palmtop? Well, IMHO, its something that has more or less the ability to run desktop software well. The Zaurus doesn\'t do this. It runs scaled down, speedy versions of desktop software, but is far more featureful than more straight PDAs, like then Sony Clie, and the Palms. But it\'s not a desktop.

So what is it? I can\'t really call it much other than the name it deserves. The Zaurus.

[TonyOlsen]

The hardware in a modern Z is no worse than a typical desktop PC of 5-6 years ago. However, people\'s expectations have evolved as computers have gotten faster, which is why it\'s difficult to imagine running modern software on a 400mhz machine with \"only\" 64 megs of RAM.

I own a C760. Personally, I think the Zaurus can\'t replace a laptop. It is just to slow.

That\'s what I mean\'t.  The Zaurus CAN replace a desktop of about 5-6 years ago.  I actually have a computer from 5-6 years ago which I owuld like to replace with my Zaurus.  I don\'t do 3d gaming, and I only use low bitrate video codecs, and so everything else should work fine on the Zaurus.  You shouldn\'t need anything more than 100 MHz to run a word editor, XLS, or web development software.

It cracks me up that most ISP software says things like \"You need a 1 GHz Pentium 4 or greater to access the Internet\".  Woah!  I\'m glad the people almost 20 years ago who invented the first conceptual \"Internet\" didn\'t know this... they only had mer 4 MHz, or slower, machines.  ...and yet they still did e-mail and primitive HTML... (The actual numbers and dates are a little fuzzy in my memory and I may have gotten some of them wrong... please correct me if you know better about this).

For everything I need (as opposed to want) in my Laptop, the Zaurus promises to do just fine. =)  For other stuff, I\'ll simply VNC (KeyPebble) to a machine which can do the rest... either way, everything I need would be in the palm of my hand.

But doesn\'t the SL-C860 have enough juice, power, memory, etc, to run a full version of OpenOffice, and other applications?  Can\'t we put more \"real full-versioned\" desktop software on the Zaurus?  Would it be a simple port, or is it more complicated than that?

[TonyOlsen]

The REAL kiss of death, however, was when Micro$oft entered the portable OS market and convinced HP to kill the LX series in favor of the Jornadas.

:cry: *sob* *sniff*... I still remember the day they killed the 200LX \"Palmtops\".  Like I said in a previous post, this has heppended a few times in history, and each time the circle comes around the Full-computer Inter-based Palmtops\" got/get bigger and bigger.  HP 95LX, 100LX, and 200LX dispapeared.  A while later there was the IBM PC110, which also died.  Then came the Toshiba Libretto, which also died.  Then came the Sony Vaio, which also died.  Now you can\'t buy Intel-Based Full-Computer laptops anymore.

...but then can the clamshell VGA Zauri... and those of us who were used to have Full-Sized computers in the palms of our hands are looking for the Zaurus to become a 200LX replacement.  The 200LX was 8 MHz, 2 MB+ RAM... I think the Zaurus would make a good substitute... even though it doesn\'t support Intel-based applications.  (See my many other threads on Intel x86 Emulators... there aren\'t any good ones that are working for the Zaurus).  I\'m willing to let go of the Intel compatibility if I can find a non-Intel replacement for the applications I need.

...And I\'m \"really\" close right now... minus the things I listed at teh top of this thread.

The 100 & 200LX were capable of running 99.9% of ALL software that ran on the original IBM PC & PC/XT machines.

I agree!  The Zaurus \"could\" also be a replacement for that if the mentality of the Zaurus being only a PDA or \"Personal Mobile Tool\" could be persuaded towards a \"Palmtop\".  That\'s the purpose of this thread.  The only thing holding it back is the persistance that the Zaurus can\'t do all of the things we need from our laptops.

Besides... Can\'t the Linux run faster than Windows?  Won\'t that make up for some of the speed difference between the 1 GHz Windows Laptop and the 400 MHz Linux Palmtop?

[TonyOlsen]

Yes the zaurus can handle Firefox, but I know I am not willing to wait 30-45 seconds for the program to load, and put up with the sluggish web browsing.

I don\'t understand... why is it so slow?  Will Firefox not run very well on a 400 MHz desktop machine?  I thought desktop Linux apps were memory and CPU friendly... did I misunderstand that?  I ran older versions of IE on my 66 MHz 486... why is it that the recent version of Linux Firefox browser requires a much faster computer?

...Are Linux apps getting bloated too?

[Ethereal]

It cracks me up that most ISP software says things like \"You need a 1 GHz Pentium 4 or greater to access the Internet\".  Woah!  I\'m glad the people almost 20 years ago who invented the first conceptual \"Internet\" didn\'t know this... they only had mer 4 MHz, or slower, machines.  ...and yet they still did e-mail and primitive HTML... (The actual numbers and dates are a little fuzzy in my memory and I may have gotten some of them wrong... please correct me if you know better about this).

There is only one authoratative source.

[roderickv]

I love this stuff! What a great discussion! Forgive me I should just shut up and listen as a new C860 owner, but I just can\'t!

I have had quite a few devices in my day including the Palm, numerous WinCE devices, Psion 5MX (still have that one) and my favorite the Sharp Zaurus ZR-5800 which I also still have! For the most part I agree that labeling devices as a PDA, Palmtop, PMT, Handheld Device, etc. doesn\'t really make all that much difference. I think the difference is how it is intended to be used, or actually used. The trend with most manufacturers of hand held devices now days are to focus on extending the desktop (Palm winCE, etc). These devices do little more than PIM functionality. Where as my original Zaurus ZR-5800 was a closed system but it had all the necessary apps I needed to use it as a stand alone device. With a keyboard large enough to touch-type on,  I could  link contacts address and events to documents and spreadsheets, print from it, run telnet sessions, get email, basic database functions, etc. But the operating system was proprietary and Sharp refused to release the SDK to the public. The new Zaurus C-series is the closest thing I have seen to the original Zaurus line, and Sharp has learned from its mistakes. The C860 is a thing of beauty and far from an extension of ones desktop. Of course you can\'t compare it with a desktop. You can\'t compare a laptop to a desktop. You sacrifice performance for size every time, but it is, with out a doubt the closest thing I have ever seen to a mini laptop (palmtop) in both form and function. It still needs a lot of work, but because of the hard work and dedication of folks like you, I am confident improvements will continue. That is why I own one today.

[TonyOlsen]

(This is what happens when I don\'t read a thread for 3+ days.  )

The Zaurus doesn\'t do this. It runs scaled down, speedy versions of desktop software, but is far more featureful than more straight PDAs, like then Sony Clie, and the Palms. But it\'s not a desktop.

...but I don\'t understand why that has to be.  Can\'t the Zaurus run the same apps that my 200 MHz 32 MB Desktop linux machine runs?  For those of us that think of the Zaurus as a \"Palmtop\" and more than a simple PDA or even a \"Personal Mobile Tool\"... can\'t we get a movement going to get the desktop linux software on the Zaurus?... the full versions? ... the \"real\" stuff?  ...nothing \"scaled down\"?

[locutus]

Why are there not more full blown GNU/Linux applications for the Z?

Screen size( remember there are many many 5x00 versions out there ), Memory size, cpu, and the default SDK( Qtopia is not full Qt ) are IMHO, why there are not more full blown GNU/Linux apps running on the Z these days.

Also IMO, the price of the 6000 will keep it a niche device and development for it less than mainstream. But, the screen size, memory, and cpu of the 6000( plus host USB support ) are big plus\'s in it\'s favor for the POSIBILITY of fullblown GNU/Linux apps running on it.