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> Will The Iphone Replace The Zaurus?
kopsis
post Jan 10 2007, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Jan 10 2007, 02:20 PM)
I find OSX hard to use, but that's probably just me not being used to it. I feel that they took perfectly good Unix and messed it up. The lack of a right mouse button is awkward too. I also don't like the bar at the top of the screen or the one at the bottom. I don't know what either one is called, but one seems to be a quick launch/taskbar and the other seems to be a standard launch bar.


I know I shouldn't feed trolls, but in what way is it messed up?! Open "Terminal" and there's a perfectly good Bash shell awaiting your command. Enter a common Unix command (note Unix != Linux) and it works pretty much as expected. In fact, Apple even provided command line tools that support administering many of the Mac's "custom" features. Sure it takes some time to learn. The same would be true if you were a BSD person using Linux for the first time or a Linux person using Solaris.

Install Apple's X11 server and you can install and run standard Unix X Windows apps (including a genuine Xterm if the Mac's Terminal prog isn't Unixy enough for you). For example, I use GnuCash on my Mac all the time.

As for the "bar" at the top, that's for your menus. The menus for your focused app show up there. Note how you can just throw your mouse cursor to the top of the screen and hit the menu bar -- much easier that having to aim for a 30 pixel thick strip of sceen real estate located at some random position on the display. Google for Fitt's Law to learn more about this aspect of GUI usability.

And the single button mouse argument? Please. You can use pretty much any mouse you want with Macs and they fully support the second button. Even Apple's own Mighty Mouse (though technically having no buttons) supports left and right clicks.

OS X is far from perfect (don't even get me started about the supposed "consistent look & feel"), but if you're going to bash it, at least pick on the "real" issues.
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Capn_Fish
post Jan 10 2007, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE(kopsis @ Jan 10 2007, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE(Capn_Fish @ Jan 10 2007, 02:20 PM)
I find OSX hard to use, but that's probably just me not being used to it. I feel that they took perfectly good Unix and messed it up. The lack of a right mouse button is awkward too. I also don't like the bar at the top of the screen or the one at the bottom. I don't know what either one is called, but one seems to be a quick launch/taskbar and the other seems to be a standard launch bar.


I know I shouldn't feed trolls, but in what way is it messed up?! Open "Terminal" and there's a perfectly good Bash shell awaiting your command. Enter a common Unix command (note Unix != Linux) and it works pretty much as expected. In fact, Apple even provided command line tools that support administering many of the Mac's "custom" features. Sure it takes some time to learn. The same would be true if you were a BSD person using Linux for the first time or a Linux person using Solaris.

Install Apple's X11 server and you can install and run standard Unix X Windows apps (including a genuine Xterm if the Mac's Terminal prog isn't Unixy enough for you). For example, I use GnuCash on my Mac all the time.

As for the "bar" at the top, that's for your menus. The menus for your focused app show up there. Note how you can just throw your mouse cursor to the top of the screen and hit the menu bar -- much easier that having to aim for a 30 pixel thick strip of sceen real estate located at some random position on the display. Google for Fitt's Law to learn more about this aspect of GUI usability.

And the single button mouse argument? Please. You can use pretty much any mouse you want with Macs and they fully support the second button. Even Apple's own Mighty Mouse (though technically having no buttons) supports left and right clicks.

OS X is far from perfect (don't even get me started about the supposed "consistent look & feel"), but if you're going to bash it, at least pick on the "real" issues.
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Sorry! ph34r.gif I don't mean to bash Apple. They do a great job in the innovation department.

I don't use Macs often, but the last time I did, I couldn't find the Terminal, and that was semi-looking for it. As for the mouse thing, the Macs I've used had the standard Mac mice with them, and I don't carry a spare mouse everywhere I go.

It's not that I hate Apple or Macs, I just don't like them. I feel that if I'm going to use something other than Windows, I'll use Linux. It works on my current hardware.

That's one other thing I have against Macs. They cost more than a standard PC. I guess that's what you pay for style, but I don't really like the white. I'm cheap, so I buy refurb computers from Dell at a fraction of full price, and if something breaks after the warranty is up, I can easily open the case and replace just about anything.

I don't want to start a war or anything, so sorry if I'm not a fan of Apple. I'm trying to voice my opinion without ticking anybody off or saying bad things just because.
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kopsis
post Jan 10 2007, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE(nilch @ Jan 10 2007, 02:38 PM)
The future will tell if the Apple iPhone will be a totally closed device with nobody other than Apple and Apple blessed co-developers will be able to develop apps for it  or others can also write apps for it using a freely (or easily) available SDK - which actually makes it an open device.
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I've seen comments in a number of places today suggesting that the iPhone will be a "closed" platform but I really can't understand what's prompting them. I fail to see any good reason why Apple would want to lock third party developers out of the iPhone. OS X is *very* open to developers. The entire OS X SDK (including compiler and IDE) is a free download to anyone willing to fill out the registration form on Apple's web site. The success of the Mac is largely a result of high quality third party software ... much of which comes from small development shops. My experience has been that Mac shareware is of extremely high quality and is a big contributor to the Mac's loyal user base (you can have my copy of Quicksilver smwhen you pry it from my cold, dead fingers smile.gif ).

To me it looks like the iPhone will support OS X Dashboard Widgets (in fact the whole UI is strikingly similar to Dashboard). If that's true (and you can install new widgets), then you'd be able to create your own apps using little more than HTML and Javascript (which is how one currently writes Widgets for OS X). And the fact that Widgets are not compiled means that they could potentially work cross-platform allowing you to run the same Widget on your iPhone and your Mac.

I see the potential for a rebirth of the Palm Pilot software development world where developers could create small, simple, specialized apps without investing thousands of hours in embedded software development. This could only help sell more iPhones, so why would Apple oppose it?

And as for Cingular, they already ship all their Windows Mobile devices unlocked (at least for adding software) so why would this be any different? As long as they keep their exclusive, more iPhones = more contracts = more guaranteed monthly revenue. And most useful apps will want to interact with the network in some way, so more available apps means more network usage (and more $$$) for the Cingular. Some carriers are too short-sighted to recognize such a business opportunity, but I've seen little evidence that Cingular is amongst them.
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tg
post Jan 10 2007, 12:39 PM
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I think many here are too negative about iphone and may want to consider the following before completely dismissing it so early in the game.

1. Commercialy supported unix on pda/phone device (this is a first?)
2. Light versions of many very good apps (ok some will argue this but please do you really believe that apps such as itunes and safari are not likely to be better than anything else running on pda's at the moment - if not imediately then very soon?)
3. Sync that actually works more or less the same as on desktop (and is comercially supported by sucessful and rich company whose future likely depends on this type of device doing well)

The biggest problem I see with iphone as presented is lack of keyboard (but somehow I think we will very quickly see all kinds of accessories including bluetooth keyboards and mice in all kinds of forms/sizes/fashions - this will happen since new phones and ipods seem to trigger accessories very quickly, even expensive ones such as iMacs smile.gif). Also, I think that either some interesting 3'rd party keyboard, or some future apple release will convert iphone to clamshell format (those of us who love clamshell z's know this works best regardless of what Jobs said in his keynote).
Other minor concerns which I think/hope will be worked out soon are no clear up-front statement regarding support for 3rd party software development, batery life, initial limit of 8Gig storage (a big drawback), and processor power - but clearly if enough people buy into this device (and I think with all the hype and ipod fanaticism this is guaranteed to happen) we will soon see much more powerful iphones - few years down the road powerfull enough to perhaps retire the mac mini.
Anyway, I am now much more hopeful about future pda/phone offerings since at minimum iphone will push many others to carefully review their strategies (maybe even Sharp although the realist in me is affraid that Sharp's answer to iphone will be probably be another fancy Japanese electronic dictionary).
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ArchiMark
post Jan 10 2007, 01:03 PM
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FWIW, I use an old but 'souped-up' PMG4 tower for my main machine at home. It runs OSX well and overall it's a real joy to use.

For my mouse I'm using a Kensington trackball with 2 buttons.

Before that I was using the Kensington trackball with 4 buttons (until it broke)...

So, OSX definitely supports more than 1 mouse button if that's what you want to use....

wink.gif
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nilch
post Jan 10 2007, 03:02 PM
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Kopsis, I don't mean to foretell the future (never was into that line of thought), but all my negetive forecast (or rather projections) was because when you look at the ISP and Phone industry, they have not really been proponents of openness and accesability very much. And I was just going by the same yardstick.

Of course if Apple really does open it up to 3rd party development, than the better. In fact I think the phone itself by its nature and its collaboration with Cingular (As an ISP they stand out beyond the Verizons and Sprints in terms of openness) to change the Voicemail part itself shows that Apple can move and shake this frigid industry like they did with the Music industry by sticking to their guns of charging a flat rate for all songs. So I do take my hats off to Apple for trying something new.

And by calling them "closed", remember that I am comparing against the Zaurus (not Sharp) yardstick of openness, that's what the thread was all about.
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Cresho
post Jan 10 2007, 05:16 PM
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It appears cisco is suing apple for iphone.

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/07/01/10/2320257.shtml
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cycle_55
post Jan 10 2007, 05:27 PM
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I'll wait for a totally open, linux eating phone without any bells and whistles which I can program any way I choose. By saying this I am not knocking anyone.


cycle_55
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Da_Blitz
post Jan 10 2007, 06:30 PM
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just had a major thoght last night

seems to me that apple really has the low end cornered, windows has the middle ground and linux has the high ground (in terms of how good you are with technolagy)

of course there are exceptions but i find it rather funny. now if only each one relised this and agrreed to stay in thier respective nicheies (windows im looking at you)
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xjqian
post Jan 10 2007, 07:00 PM
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Any chance we can get an "unlocked" iPhone, which means you can switch carrier just by switching the SIM card? I am not hoping this will ever happen in the US. But Jobs mentioned that iPhone will enter the Asian market by 2008. AFAIK, a locked wireless handset has little chance to survive in the Asian market. Maybe we can see an unlocked version in Asian or European market. The value of iphone will not be justified until then as a piece of standalone hardware and an open set of OS+SDK. Any wireless ISP crap should be stripped off before I'm willing to pay the price.
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ralphrmartin
post Jan 10 2007, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE(Biggerfoot @ Jan 9 2007, 07:43 PM)
As a Mac user, the new iPhone is a tempting replacement for my trusty 5500.
*


Well, I am a mac user too, and the iPhone is useless to me. I use my Zaurus heavily for spreadsheets, and need a keyboard. Time to check out the OQO Model 02, I reckon.

The iPhone is a real disappointment (but not a surprise)...
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cycle_55
post Jan 10 2007, 08:22 PM
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How is it that every new devise which comes along is going to replace the Z. My Z is going to very difficult to replace. I would be much happier with these sorts of threads if they were more about comparing apples to apples smile.gif


cycle_55
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Meanie
post Jan 10 2007, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE(cycle_55 @ Jan 11 2007, 02:22 PM)
How is it that every new devise which comes along is going to replace the Z. My Z is going to very difficult to replace. I would be much happier with these sorts of threads if they were more about comparing apples to apples smile.gif


cycle_55
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yeah, I got an OQO and it does not replace the Z. It may do other things that the Z can't do, but the Z does so many things it can't do. And btw, the OQO is an overprized piece of $$$$. And don't ever buy from expansys. Their service is crap.
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speculatrix
post Jan 11 2007, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE(kopsis @ Jan 10 2007, 09:30 PM)
platform but I really can't understand what's prompting them. I fail to see any good reason why Apple would want to lock third party developers out of the iPhone. OS X is *very* open to developers. The entire OS X SDK (including compiler and IDE) is a free download to anyone willing to fill out the registration form on Apple's web site. The success of the Mac is largely a
*


if a significant part of the iPhone system is made open source or at least available for download, then I for one would be interested in seeing it ported to the zaurus!
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speculatrix
post Jan 11 2007, 02:41 AM
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QUOTE(Meanie @ Jan 11 2007, 05:25 AM)
And don't ever buy from expansys. Their service is crap.
*


I agree with that... two of us bought refurb'd Palm T3s at work, described as "as new, boxed, complete" - they were listed by specific number, and different units had different grades and descriptions implying that they were 100% definite as to condition. One arrived as described - could have been brand new, the other very tatty. Took quite a while to get expansys to even take notice, ended up forcing a refund by threatening credit card chargeback.

Anyway, this is off-topic.
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