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> Will The Iphone Replace The Zaurus?
dhns
post Jan 11 2007, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE(kopsis @ Jan 10 2007, 09:30 PM)
I've seen comments in a number of places today suggesting that the iPhone will be a "closed" platform but I really can't understand what's prompting them. I fail to see any good reason why Apple would want to lock third party developers out of the iPhone.
Well, the same argument would hold for the iPod and 3rd party games - but it was and is locked...
QUOTE
OS X is *very* open to developers. The entire OS X SDK (including compiler and IDE) is a free download to anyone willing to fill out the registration form on Apple's web site. The success of the Mac is largely a result of high quality third party software ... much of which comes from small development shops. My experience has been that Mac shareware is of extremely high quality and is a big contributor to the Mac's loyal user base (you can have my copy of Quicksilver smwhen you pry it from my cold, dead fingers smile.gif ).

To me it looks like the iPhone will support OS X Dashboard Widgets (in fact the whole UI is strikingly similar to Dashboard). If that's true (and you can install new widgets), then you'd be able to create your own apps using little more than HTML and Javascript (which is how one currently writes Widgets for OS X). And the fact that Widgets are not compiled means that they could potentially work cross-platform allowing you to run the same Widget on your iPhone and your Mac.

That is exactly the same conclusion I came to while trying to collect all these bits of information. And, Safari understands HTML&Javascript - all similar requirements for Google Maps on a Phone.

-- hns
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gr8ful
post Jan 11 2007, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE(cycle_55 @ Jan 10 2007, 11:22 PM)
How is it that every new devise which comes along is going to replace the Z. My Z is going to very difficult to replace. I would be much happier with these sorts of threads if they were more about comparing apples to apples smile.gif


cycle_55
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I know I look at whether these new devices will replace my Z because I am dying for more innovation (better screen, faster processor, more memory) and better integration (wifi, BT). For most of the power users on this site, it will take one special device to replace ALL that you are doing with your Z's. For some the iPhone may fit the bill.

The one thing Apple has done with the iPhone and basing it on OSX, they have laid the foundation to build on. Can you imagine in the future an iPhone that runs a mobile version of iWork (word processor, presentation, and soon to be added spreadsheet) and a mobile version of iTunes so you can purchase and download music, TV shows, and music wirelessly. Then think about integrating all of this with your .Mac account accessible wirelessly so that you can store and retrieve your iWork documents there, store and retrieve your iTunes media there, etc, etc, etc.

It's obvious that the iPhone is not for everyone. I do like the innovation they put into the phone, but will it be open to third-party development? If you want a hackable phone, then the Neo1973 by FIC may be what many are looking for. It won't replace the Zaurus for many of you either, but it sure will be fun to play with.
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speculatrix
post Jan 11 2007, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE(gr8ful @ Jan 11 2007, 04:06 PM)
I know I look at whether these new devices will replace my Z because I am dying for more innovation (better screen, faster processor, more memory) and better integration (wifi, BT).
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IMVHO the HTC universal can be zaurus killer, and there's still too much that's work in progress (http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalStatus).
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vputz
post Jan 11 2007, 08:21 AM
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I'm way, way more interested in the OpenMoko phone...
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bluedevils
post Jan 11 2007, 08:47 AM
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hmmm...I don't see anthing about speech recognition for dialing through a bluetooth headset. That could be a deal breaker...
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nilch
post Jan 11 2007, 09:10 AM
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QUOTE(speculatrix @ Jan 11 2007, 05:38 AM)
if a significant part of the iPhone system is made open source or at least available for download, then I for one would be interested in seeing it ported to the zaurus!
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What are you smoking man, give me some of it... wish I could have pipe dreams like that.

As much as we like the iPhone, and as much as we debate the probability of it not being closed, there is no way Apple is going to give out the source to that - and don't tell me "Oh OSX is based on UNIX which is open source (depends) so..." .

I mean look at iTV, ok Apple TV- its meant to get your iTunes movies to the TV basically - so it plays well within the Apple garden. The iPod, the iTunes, iTv and now I bet the iPhone will all just play well to Apple services. Of course that's not to say that 3rd party developers can write apps for it, but open-source it so you can port to some other device - I need that hell of a smoking stuff that you are smoking speculatrix.
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BarryW
post Jan 11 2007, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE(bluedevils @ Jan 11 2007, 07:47 AM)
hmmm...I don't see anthing about speech recognition for dialing through a bluetooth headset.  That could be a deal breaker...
*


My Moto can't even pronounce my wife's name correctly. I had to change her entry to "Wife".
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BarryW
post Jan 11 2007, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE(nilch @ Jan 11 2007, 08:10 AM)
QUOTE(speculatrix @ Jan 11 2007, 05:38 AM)
if a significant part of the iPhone system is made open source or at least available for download, then I for one would be interested in seeing it ported to the zaurus!
*


What are you smoking man, give me some of it... wish I could have pipe dreams like that.

As much as we like the iPhone, and as much as we debate the probability of it not being closed, there is no way Apple is going to give out the source to that - and don't tell me "Oh OSX is based on UNIX which is open source (depends) so..." .

I mean look at iTV, ok Apple TV- its meant to get your iTunes movies to the TV basically - so it plays well within the Apple garden. The iPod, the iTunes, iTv and now I bet the iPhone will all just play well to Apple services. Of course that's not to say that 3rd party developers can write apps for it, but open-source it so you can port to some other device - I need that hell of a smoking stuff that you are smoking speculatrix.
*




I've been doing basically the same thing with my macbook pro from my wife's iTunes. In windows, so I don't see your point. Yes, it's an extension of iTunes, so what?
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dhns
post Jan 11 2007, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE(gr8ful @ Jan 11 2007, 04:06 PM)
The one thing Apple has done with the iPhone and basing it on OSX, they have laid the foundation to build on.  Can you imagine in the future an iPhone that runs a mobile version of iWork (word processor, presentation, and soon to be added spreadsheet) and a mobile version of iTunes so you can purchase and download music, TV shows, and music wirelessly.  Then think about integrating all of this with your .Mac account accessible wirelessly so that you can store and retrieve your iWork documents there, store and retrieve your iTunes media there, etc, etc, etc.
You are citing our dream.

And some demos for such an - open source - foundation are already available. If you don't believe: http://www.quantum-step.com/download/sourc...AppKit/Sources/

I get the impression we should rename "QuantumSTEP" to something like "OpenApplePhone" - but that raises trademark issues...

For those who still do not know QuantumSTEP: it is a version of GNUstep (i.e. open Cocoa) using an X11 server plus an application suite that runs on either a Mac or a Linux PDA. The application suite already includes prototypes of a POP3/IMAP Mail client, a WebKit based Browser, Calculator, Calendar, AddressBook, Navigator, Music/Video/Photo recorder, etc.

And, you can write Cocoa-Apps in Xcode that are "Universal Binary".

.Mac integration is only a matter of having a WebDAV client on the Zaurus/Linux.

Demos run on the Zaurus and we are only waiting to get OpenMoko devices to really have a demo on a mobile phone.

Please also take a look at the application suite of QuantumSTEP:
http://www.quantum-step.com/swi/index.php

And at the FOSDEM presentation from last year: http://xdev.org/fosdem2006/QuantumSTEP-Fos...2006-Slides.pdf

Let me ask one question openly:

Why is everybody just complaining that the iPhone is closed and asking to have an open OS X phone from Apple instead of supporting a project that is already here for 3 years?

Only a small handful of people appears to be recognizing or supporting QuantumSTEP so far. Is it required to have the marketing and development muscles (i.e. budget and brand) of Apple? Or having the polished look of all images/icons/screenshots?

Or is it sort of a fandom issue - not technology? (the 160ppi display of the iPhone is also praised as the best you can get - a C3200 or N770 has 220ppi)

-- hns
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Cresho
post Jan 12 2007, 12:13 AM
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nope this will definetly not replace my zaurus 100%. It's just an overpriced phone.


http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/07/01/12/0430200.shtml

so says steve jobs...NO 3rd party ALLOWED!

It is a piece of crap....read posts. sprint and at&t will not allow such nonsense to go around unless they make money......HAHA!

This post has been edited by Cresho: Jan 12 2007, 12:14 AM
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kopsis
post Jan 12 2007, 04:41 AM
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QUOTE(Cresho @ Jan 12 2007, 03:13 AM)
so says steve jobs...NO 3rd party ALLOWED!


Well, I stand corrected. Personally, I think that's a significant blunder on Apple's part. I can see not letting joe-hacker toss just any old piece of Objective-C code on this thing. But a nice safe Widget sandbox would add huge potential to Apple's phone without the risk of compromising system integrity.

Oh well, my Cingular contract doesn't run out until year end, so that should be enough time for the clever engineers in Korea and Japan to start cranking out more flexible knock-offs smile.gif

This post has been edited by Cresho: Jan 12 2007, 09:49 AM
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dhns
post Jan 12 2007, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE(kopsis @ Jan 12 2007, 01:41 PM)
I can see not letting joe-hacker toss just any old piece of Objective-C code on this thing. But a nice safe Widget sandbox would add huge potential to Apple's phone without the risk of compromising system integrity.
What makes the real difference to toss just an old piece of Objective-C on a MacBook with Wireless connectivity? The risk of compromizing system integrity (especially the networks) is 100% the same... Or are the Mobile networks inherently less safe than let's say DSL?

-- hns
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speculatrix
post Jan 12 2007, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE(dhns @ Jan 12 2007, 02:32 PM)
What makes the real difference to toss just an old piece of Objective-C on a MacBook with Wireless connectivity? The risk of compromizing system integrity (especially the networks) is 100% the same... Or are the Mobile networks inherently less safe than let's say DSL?
*


it depends on the partitioning of the cpus and the gsm system - gsm is encrypted with secret keys which are stored locked in the sim also using secrets... and the network stack has to be very reliable to prevent it screwing up the radio connection for all phones on the same base station.

thus you can't allow untrusted code to access any data used by the gsm stack. take a look at the pocketpenguin forums to see more about this.
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tg
post Jan 12 2007, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE(kopsis @ Jan 12 2007, 07:41 AM)
QUOTE(Cresho @ Jan 12 2007, 03:13 AM)
so says steve jobs...NO 3rd party ALLOWED!


Well, I stand corrected. Personally, I think that's a significant blunder on Apple's part. I can see not letting joe-hacker toss just any old piece of Objective-C code on this thing. But a nice safe Widget sandbox would add huge potential to Apple's phone without the risk of compromising system integrity.


*



This will be a deal breaker for me as well (and I also stand corrected). The fact that Jobs went out of his way in NY Times to point out that iPhone should not be thought of as computer replacement is extremely disapointing.
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dhns
post Jan 12 2007, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE(speculatrix @ Jan 12 2007, 05:02 PM)
thus you can't allow untrusted code to access any data used by the gsm stack. take a look at the pocketpenguin forums to see more about this.
*

That is only an issue if you run both on the same processor in a single operating system. If you have two (an application processor with any OS and a module) - what stops you from using a serial interface and GSM 07.07 AT commands to communicate between both?

In that case, it is the same as plugging a GSM card into your Zaurus. You can see the interface, send command etc. but can't get anything in or out of the module which is not allowed by the protected firmware of the GSM module. And, you can't tear down southern california's networks...

And, for hitting a price point of 499-599$, the cost difference between a single and two processor architecture can't be the real argument... And, finally a single processor architecture would mean that Apple has developed a full GSM stack to run as a Mach device driver. This is much too complex to get through FCC smile.gif

-- hns
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