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> [GUIDE] How to remove ALL spyware from Gemini! (Google, MTK)
jerome
post Aug 10 2018, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE(NCI @ Aug 11 2018, 01:32 AM) *
A proper LineageOS ROM would be fantastic,. I personally miss tons of little customization options here and there, which I learned to treat as something available by default using LineageOS/CM for years. \=


If I understood correctly, the available Lineage OS ROM misses proper drivers. Would it be possible to start from that ROM and paste in the drivers from the official ROM?
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NCI
post Aug 11 2018, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE(jerome @ Aug 10 2018, 08:57 PM) *
If I understood correctly, the available Lineage OS ROM misses proper drivers. Would it be possible to start from that ROM and paste in the drivers from the official ROM?

It sounds logical, but only someone with actual experience in this field can answer for sure.
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graynada
post Aug 11 2018, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE(jerome @ Aug 10 2018, 10:55 PM) *
QUOTE(graynada @ Aug 10 2018, 08:29 AM) *
I you have agreed within the terms and conditions and the company is upfront about what it is doing then that is not spyware. It is when it is happening without your knowledge, and you seem extremely aware of everything Google are doing, that it is spyware.


Except that the proposal "accept to be spied upon or do not use a smartphone" can be understood as taking undue advantage of an inequality in bargaining power:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability

I really wonder why there is always somebody on these threads to defend google, a multibillions rich company. Are you a google employee? All we want here is a technical discussion on how to design a particular custom rom for the device we all bought.


No I don't work for Google and I am not defending Google as such, all I am trying to point out is that you are singling out Google and miss defining what they do. Virtually every large company you deal with collects data on you nd uses it to try and improve service and/or ncrease sales. Ultimately Google isn't even trying to increase sales to you, because you get their product free. As I said before what actual harm are people suffering from Google's data gathering? for me it is being shown a list of sheds for sale after I have just bought a shed, no different to Amazon, eBay, Facebook, Argos blah blah blah. They are not stealing money from my bank account, selling my house without my knowledge, harvesting my organs. I for one am much more interested in real spyware and security risks and creating false impressions around any legitimate corporation is unhelpful in this respect.

You may wish also to remember that without Google you wouldn't be having the opportunity to develop the custom ROMs, there would be no Android, and we would all most likely be stuck with iOS, a world I am glad I do not inhabit. And that's without mentioning the freedom distributing Android Studio has given millions to develop top rate applications for us all to use and enjoy.

As I have said before I am perfectly happy that you would want to remove Google products from your Android device, and I congratulate you on your endeavours and your guide. But the facts remain to call it removing 'spyware' is plain wrong and I believe leaves a Gemini more vulnerable to spyware and other very dangerous security threats.

Thank you for including the warnings, maybe you would consider remove 'spyware' from the title and description too?
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jerome
post Aug 11 2018, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE(graynada @ Aug 12 2018, 01:35 AM) *
No I don't work for Google and I am not defending Google as such, all I am trying to point out is that you are singling out Google and miss defining what they do.


We are not "singling out Google", it simply happens that Google is what we want to remove from the Gemini phone. If it were a Samsung phone, we would discuss Google and Samsung (who adds further non removable software to their phones).


QUOTE
Virtually every large company you deal with collects data on you


I can refuse to deal with any particular company of my choice. Actually, I often do. I don't accept customer loyalty cards, often pay cash, etc...


QUOTE
and uses it to try and improve service and/or ncrease sales. Ultimately Google isn't even trying to increase sales to you, because you get their product free.


Google business model is not to increase sales of their products to me but to increase the sale of their advertising products to their real customers.


QUOTE
As I said before what actual harm are people suffering from Google's data gathering?


That is for us to judge and examples were given earlier in the thread, which you simply ignored.


QUOTE
for me it is being shown a list of sheds for sale after I have just bought a shed, no different to Amazon, eBay, Facebook, Argos blah blah blah. They are not stealing money from my bank account, selling my house without my knowledge, harvesting my organs.


Indeed google is not harvesting your organs. Do you see what you have written here? Why do you go to such ridiculous comparisons in your eager to defend a multibillions dollars company?


QUOTE
You may wish also to remember that without Google you wouldn't be having the opportunity to develop the custom ROMs, there would be no Android, and we would all most likely be stuck with iOS, a world I am glad I do not inhabit.


The opposite is true actually. There have been various efforts to develop alternative phone operating systems and they ultimately failed because Google leveraged their quasi monopoly.
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graynada
post Aug 11 2018, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE
That is for us to judge and examples were given earlier in the thread, which you simply ignored


And you are simply ignoring the plain and simple fact that what you are removing here is not spyware. The fact that Google are a multi billion dollar company doesn't change that in anyway shape or form.

QUOTE
I can refuse to deal with any particular company of my choice. Actually, I often do. I don't accept customer loyalty cards, often pay cash, etc...


But you buy an Android phone thereby choosing to deal with Google?

QUOTE
Google business model is not to increase sales of their products to me but to increase the sale of their advertising products to their real customers.


Thank you for further explaining exactly the exact point I was making. As persons of free will you and I then can choose if we are influenced by their customers. No harm done.

QUOTE
Samsung (who adds further non removable software to their phones).


Of course, some of it very useful, but again I wouldn't call it spyware or attack Samsung for including their software.

QUOTE
The opposite is true actually. There have been various efforts to develop alternative phone operating systems and they ultimately failed because Google leveraged their quasi monopoly.


That explains how those poor down trodden underdogs at the barely funded Microsoft couldn't get people to adopt their mobile operating system. Ultimately the operating system has to good to survive as Google proved to get a market share against Apple in the first place.

Ultimately I will go back to my first point which is the one you seem to be ignoring. It in no way bothers me that you want to remove all traces of Google products from your Android phone but it is still not spyware!!
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jerome
post Aug 12 2018, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE(graynada @ Aug 12 2018, 07:02 AM) *
And you are simply ignoring the plain and simple fact that what you are removing here is not spyware.


I did not use that particular word in any of my post. You may be confusing me with the o.p.

QUOTE
But you buy an Android phone thereby choosing to deal with Google?


I bought the only small device on the market with a keyboard and I expected that device to support a google-free experience. It was specifically advertised with the capacity to install alternative OSes, which is what I am discussing here.

QUOTE
Thank you for further explaining exactly the exact point I was making. As persons of free will you and I then can choose if we are influenced by their customers. No harm done.


You are not quite honest here and ignoring the whole body of psychological studies on influence, but at least you don't continue with the argument that google does not sell your organs.

QUOTE
It in no way bothers me that you want to remove all traces of Google products from your Android phone


Great to have this sorted out.
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graynada
post Aug 12 2018, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE
I bought the only small device on the market with a keyboard and I expected that device to support a google-free experience. It was specifically advertised with the capacity to install alternative OSes, which is what I am discussing here.


I assumed that the Google free experience would be expected outside of the Google supplied OS Android, ie in the Linux environment. What is being discussed here is a Google (spyware) free experience within the Google OS, still achievable as demonstrated by the guide but not one of the features advertised by Planet.
QUOTE


QUOTE
I did not use that particular word in any of my post. You may be confusing me with the o.p.


So do you agree it is not spyware and thus this thread is misrepresented?

QUOTE
You are not quite honest here and ignoring the whole body of psychological studies on influence, but at least you don't continue with the argument that google does not sell your organs.


Advertising is legal and essentially (sadly) everywhere, you will not be free from the influence of others (even the Goole customers you are trying to avoid) by removing the Google components from Android. I didn't explain the organ harvesting comment as I hoped it was obvious that that was a bit of melodrama to make a point about focus on the real harm available over the Internet rather than the hyped.

QUOTE
Great to have this sorted out.


You are welcome. This was a point I had made much earlier. My issues were with the use of the term spyware and that users following this guide would have a less secure device than they started with following a guide that could be construded as a guide to improve security. This has been address to a degree with the included warning now.
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Eldkatten
post Aug 12 2018, 03:34 AM
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Hello,

on "Spyware": while I can follow the arguments agains (and for) Google applications being Spyware, there is one point the one(s) arguing against do not address, and I think this is the main point for wanting to remove all Google stuff. At least for me it is.

I installed a firewall, which should block all unwanted network access, both GSM and WiFi. Nevertheless I observe network traffic by applications I both blocked with named firewall and by switching off data use, "synchronisation" and such as far as possible in the settings.
Thus Google software send (and assumingly receive) data out of the device via network connections, regardless. Thus Google software ignore the settings I, the owner of the device (and I might add: still the owner of my data and data profiles), have willingly and consciously set. And to add insult to injury Google software does this secretely, meaning they hide the network access and the sending of data from me. If I hadn't checked thoroughly "who" is accessing the network, I wouldn't have found out.

Sorry for calling such a behaviour "spying" and software, which shows such behaviour "spyware", even it is not by the book. But no matter what label we stick to it: I do not want to send Google (or anyone else for that matter) data concerning me without my consent, let be against my consent, and especially not secretely, in order to deceive me. If Google software can't be configurated to not sending data, because it is ignoring settings or doesn't offer such settings, I want it removed from my device.

Just my oponion. Kind regards
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bloblo
post Aug 12 2018, 03:59 AM
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QUOTE(graynada @ Aug 12 2018, 01:32 AM) *
So do you agree it is not spyware and thus this thread is misrepresented?

If it sends data affecting the user's privacy without an off switch, and the user doesn't want that, then it can be considered Spyware. Not sure why you two discuss this over kilometers of pages...? See also wikipedia:
QUOTE
Spyware is software that aims to gather information about a person or organization sometimes without their knowledge, that may send such information to another entity without the consumer's consent[...]


Also, whether it is actually Spyware or not is also somewhat irrelevant for the guide, since people who don't consider it so can simply leave the Google things on their device. So maybe with this we can return to the topic at hand, the practical steps.
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graynada
post Aug 12 2018, 05:08 AM
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QUOTE
Also, whether it is actually Spyware or not is also somewhat irrelevant for the guide, since people who don't consider it so can simply leave the Google things on their device. So maybe with this we can return to the topic at hand, the practical steps.


I don't think it is irrelevant as the implication is you are improving security while actually deminishing it.

QUOTE
Sorry for calling such a behaviour "spying" and software, which shows such behaviour "spyware", even it is not by the book. But no matter what label we stick to it: I do not want to send Google (or anyone else for that matter) data concerning me without my consent, let be against my consent, and especially not secretely, in order to deceive me. If Google software can't be configurated to not sending data, because it is ignoring settings or doesn't offer such settings, I want it removed from my device.


That is the point, it is with your consent. If you don't want to send Google data do not agree to their terms and conditions. It is very simple.
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bloblo
post Aug 12 2018, 05:19 AM
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Right, that's how it works with any Spyware - they usually don't make your computer more insecure apart from the data transfer, and if you stop using it (or remove it) you will be no longer spied upon rolleyes.gif
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graynada
post Aug 12 2018, 05:27 AM
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QUOTE(bloblo @ Aug 12 2018, 02:19 PM) *
Right, that's how it works with any Spyware - they usually don't make your computer more insecure apart from the data transfer, and if you stop using it (or remove it) you will be no longer spied upon rolleyes.gif


I disagree. The point about spyware is yo are unaware of its activities and have not intentionally installed that software. By your own admission you are acutely aware of what is happening and have intentionally install and agreed to the T&Cs of said software. That is not how real spyware works rolleyes.gif laugh.gif biggrin.gif
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Eldkatten
post Aug 12 2018, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE(graynada @ Aug 12 2018, 03:27 PM) *
(...)I disagree. (...)

And I don't care whether you do or don't. With your pernicketiness and know-all manner you are missing the point everyone else in this thread is considering the actualy important one: Google is collecting data on a device that it doesn't own, and sends it to goodness-knows-where. And can't get switched off doing so. It doesn't matter whether the user is forced to "agree" to that behaviour if the only reasonable alternative is to not being able to use his/her own device. And when I use the few settings that seem to switch off the data collecting and sending, and the collecting and sending goes on nevertheless, then the data collecting and sending is done
- without my consent
- secretely, i.e. without the user's knowledge and thus deceiving the user.
This is both spying and malicious.

Honestly, your, graynada's, harping on puny details about whether Google (and MTK) loggers, data colletion and sending may be called Spyware, is on the verge of trolling, in my opinion. Can't you just leave it alone? As I see it, everyone else in the thread agrees on what is meant in the topic. I really want to read about how to keep that software from sending my data to whomever, and I'm really tired about your attitude of being the only one who knows what Spyware is and everyone else is wrong. It's a question of definition, and in this thread we - that is everyone except you - agreed on a certain definition.
Whether it suits you or not.

Can we get back to the topic, which is about removing or blocking software that collects and sends data? Please?
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jerome
post Aug 12 2018, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE(graynada @ Aug 12 2018, 09:32 AM) *
QUOTE
I bought the only small device on the market with a keyboard and I expected that device to support a google-free experience. It was specifically advertised with the capacity to install alternative OSes, which is what I am discussing here.

I assumed that the Google free experience would be expected outside of the Google supplied OS Android, ie in the Linux environment.


I simply want a small computer using Android Open Source Project (AOSP), without additions.
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jakfish
post Aug 12 2018, 01:27 PM
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At this point, I feel we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. It's a philosophical discussion that clearly can't be reconciled. Let the OP tend to the first post and update his/her approach with help from like-minded people and keep it there.

Because more important than even philosophy is the fact that we are a small community and we really do need each other's technical support. We're missing great chunks of information--how to reflash safely, how to get US carriers to work properly, etc--and none of us are in position to burn bridges over arguments that seem to have a thousand conclusions.

Sorry to sound so Kum ba yah,

Jake
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